Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id TAA01720 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:05:46 GMT Subject: Re: What are memes made of? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:04:45 -0500 x-sender: wsmith1@camail2.harvard.edu x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, Claritas Est Veritas From: "Wade T.Smith" <wade_smith@harvard.edu> To: "Memetics Discussion List" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <20000225191030.AAA950@camail2.harvard.edu@[205.240.180.105]> Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Lloyd Robertson made this comment not too long ago --
>Should wider ties become fashion again, what is the meaning in that? I
>suppose, if you define memetics narrowly, fashion in clothing has little to
>do with memetics. But it is clearly part of culture and the wearers of
>wider ties are communicating something to others who observe them. I still
>fail to see a neat distinction between that and birdsong for those species
>whose songs are variant and dependant on imitation.
And, thus, perhaps, our dilemma- should birdsong be considered memetic,
there is practically no point to memetics- for birdsong is clearly
explained through genetics and developed behaviors, and thus human
culture might also be- reduced to that, even. Blackmore's insistence upon
calling birdsong memetic is a fatal mistake, IMHO, to the pursuit of
memetics.
Finding the 'neat distinction' between what we do that is the human
variant of birdsong, and what we do that is creative behavior, is totally
dependant upon finding a _reason_ for this distinction in the first
place. It is a fine line to draw, and, it is my suspicion that language
is a behavioral requirement- the genetically developed structure upon
which culture can form.
I still fail to see any evolution of culture without a companion genetic
evolution. The river may change its course, but it still flows from the
same source, and is still water. What culture is today comes from the
same source. Food, shelter, and sex. The complexities of our bodies and
of our environment are sufficient to explain culture, even to explain it
as a form of birdsong. But language makes a memetic culture possible.
And it would be nice to have language explained in a neat little bundle,
but I don't think memetics requires that.
But it does require the removal of birdsong from its examples.
- Wade
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