Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA11190 (8.6.9/5.3[ref pg@gmsl.co.uk] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk); Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:44:45 GMT Message-Id: <200002171845.NAA11346@mail1.lig.bellsouth.net> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:46:48 -0600 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What are memes made of? In-reply-to: <1261351125-3263976@smtp.clarityconnect.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Raymond Recchia <rrecchia@mail.clarityconnect.com>
Subject: Re: What are memes made of?
Date sent: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 02:09:31 -0500
Send reply to: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> At 09:00 PM 02/15/00 -0600, you wrote:
>
> Joe Dees wrote
> >Memes involve intention and signification, and as such are
> >restricted to creation/mutation within and transmission/reception
> >between self-consciously aware beings. The presence of self-
> >conscious awareness a matter of the necessary quantity of
> >neurons, axons and synapses being intertwined by sufficient
> >complexity to breach the Godelian threshhold and permit self-
> >referentiality. We have as of yet failed to find any bird which can
> >pass the mirror test (regarding an image of themselves in a mirror
> >with an anomalous dab of paint daubed on the nose/beak, and
> >touching their own snout rather than the one in the mirror), which
> >distinguishes between the understanding that the image is of
> >themselves and the erroneous assumption that such a reflected
> >image is one of a conspecific (another member of the same
> >species) (SOCIAL COGNITION AND THE ACQUISITION OF SELF
> >by Lewis and Brooks-Gunn). As of yet, only humans and the great
> >apes (gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans and bonobos) have
> >passed such a test.
>
> I'm not sure that all human behaviors I classify as memes would fit this
> definition. By way of example I would offer the personal spacing differences
> between cultures. In many Islamic countries people stand closer to each other
> than people in many Western nations. For most of us personal
> spacing is a behavior that we don't even think about and we
> wouldn't become aware that it was something that required thinking about
> unless we suddenly found ourselves in the midst of the other culture.
> Never-the-less personal spacing appears to be a culturally transmitted
> behavior. To my thinking personal spacing is a meme. It is something
> that can be studied as a self-replicating phenomenon. The bird song
> example is similar to the personal spacing example. Both involve
> self-replication of behavior or thinking patterns.
>
The interplay between the fixed genetics of the birds and the
variability of various birds' environment, especially in the
phenomenon of imprinting (which was first discovered in bird
young), which is a genetically mandated critical period during
which imitation patterns are set, is enough to explain the small
differences in birdsong which occur. The very fact that personal
space differences exist, i.e. that they are socioculturally specific,
rather than specieswide, marks it as a meaningful behavior (the
meaning being personal respect for other's space) which is
intentionally and differentially passed through generations, most
likely through caregivers and/or older peers during childhood.
>
> Self-awareness could be an important phenomenon in the study of human
> memes. There may be a lot that can be said about the differences between memes
> that require self-awareness and those that don't. But insisting on
> self-awareness strays from Dawkin's central theme of selfish yet unaware
> self-replicating entities.
>
Memes are not themselves self-aware, just their
creators/mutators/transmitters/receivers, i.e. us.
>
> Raymond Recchia
> *DISCLAIMER* Lawyer and former mammalian physiologist only.
> No philosophy degree. *DISCLAIMER*
>
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
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