RE: Inernal meme?

Chris Lofting (
Wed, 13 Oct 1999 02:59:49 +1000

From: "Chris Lofting" <>
To: <>
Subject: RE: Inernal meme?
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 02:59:49 +1000
In-Reply-To: <>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: []On Behalf
> Of Elmo recio
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 October 1999 1:32
> To:
> Subject: RE: Inernal meme?
> Mark:
> Your rope example is a matter of physics. Your sign example is a
> matter of
> semiotics. I recommend study of the wave equation before trying
> to relate
> the two.
> Elmo:
> I am not trying to relate the two. I am just saying that the properties
> of the `big picture' are not in the atom itself. Each atom is doing its
> thing, and following it's own laws. You won't see `eat at joes' spelled
> out in the atom of neon. And you won't see a wave in the atom of a rope.
> however, putting it all together, you /will/ see the big picture. This
> is what i mean by `belief of' as far as the neurons are concerned.
> I can take the analogy a step furthur to say that you wont see little
> humans in the cells of humans... or a little heart in the cell of a
> heart. And, the whole point of bringing this up: you wont see an idea,
> or belief system in the cell of a brain.

Ummm....not so Elmo.... you will see properties and methods that determine
the structure of that idea/belief and so the *general* expression. (see

Only when you stand back and
> see how the pieces all work together can you get any idea of what diner
> you've hit while travelling down Route 1.

Elmo, your approach sounds like Feynman's sum of histories where you treat
everything as a wave and it is the resulting interference that creates
reality (from quantum mechanics). However this approach is one of FOUR.
there is also Dirac's approach, Heisenberg's approach, and Schroedinger's

All of these can tell you the same thing but interestingly you cannot go
directly from/to Dirac to/from Feynman, you have to go by way of Heisenberg
or Schroedinger. IOW we have four fundamental ways to generate the same
'meaning' although each can bring-out aspects in a 'better' way than
another. Horses for courses?

As to the properties not being in the atom --- hmmm... what do you think of
complexity/chaos and the concept of emergence Elmo?

How about the distinctions of objects and relationships? Is it coincidence
that these distinctions operate at the sub atomic level (fermion/boson
characteristics) and are also the prime distinctions used in neurology and
psychology (in the form of the what/where dichotomy)?

A gene can be interpreted as an object and a phenotype is the identification
of a state that encompasses the expression of that object in a context;
phenotype maps to object+'relationship'.

But then we get this when a nucleus is joined with an electron(s) to form
atoms. The valence shell (outer electron shell) of an atom determines the
atom's expression in a context; the shell determines relational processes
and so we have the same object/relationship patterns as in genes, as in
brains, as in minds, as in cultures. Where does the 'little picture' stop
and the 'big picture' begin?

There will be 'refinements' at different levels and increases in context
complexity can allow for the emergence of more complex forms of objects and
relationships but they are still 'objects' and 'relationships' and still
manifest fundamental characteristics that seem to be invarient regardless of
scale; there are some properties that function across the board. These
properties seem to be structural in that they seem to help maintain the
overall integrity of the universe... although you remark that atoms 'follow
their own laws' is interesting, could you flesh that out for me please?

Do you think ideas have a structure? an underlying format that serves as a
developmental context?
or do you think that ideas just 'pop-out' free of any lower level
influences? Where do you think that neural patterns stop and "Joe's Diner"
takes over? (isnt this expression an object-relationship pattern?)



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