RE: implied or inferred memes

Chris Lofting (
Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:22:58 +1000

From: "Chris Lofting" <>
To: <>
Subject: RE: implied or inferred memes
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:22:58 +1000
In-Reply-To: <[]>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: []On Behalf
> Of Wade T.Smith
> Sent: Monday, 20 September 1999 12:35
> To: Memetics Discussion List
> Subject: Re: implied or inferred memes
> >I would like to get an example of your kind of test in the case of NLP.
> >From all I know, so would NLP. Desperately. So would astrology.
> Desperately. So would any of almost all pseudosciences. But until then,
> they rely on and retort with the answer 'we know it is real because it
> works'.
> Memetics, it seems to me, is in a very similar vessel, with a full
> complement of plausibilities, relying on a voracious grab at evidences
> from several plates, but offering no dish of its own.
> The sad fact that so many correlational sophocracies abound is not a
> proof of multiculturalism among the sciences, but a proof of the endless
> faculties for self-deception spawned from our pattern-forcing perceptions.
> And that deception, so far, is all I see working. May memetics come on as
> a champion to slay this dragon, and hurrah for it.

:-) wonderful example of rigid, object oriented, fundamentalism!
Understandable of course in that there is much illusion out there but then
without illusion we would have no culture.

What I find interesting is you do not seem to see NLP as a manifestation of
memetics at work! NLP is founded on the use of dichotomisations (as is
Astrology, as is Maths!). The reason people find meaning in it is due to the
fact that the use of recursive dichotomisations is fundamental to our
creation of a sense of meaning. Develop ANYTHING using recursive
dichotomisations and you will get people to 'believe'.

ANY discipline that uses recursive dichotomisations is a metaphor for
describing object (what) and relationship (where) data which is what our
neurology processes -- objects/relationships.

Understand that process and you will start to get an idea about memetics
through the use of resonance to communicate, and that communication includes
'illusions'. (see )

My I suggest that you read through some of the 'basic' texts of NLP prior to
the newagers being attracted to it. In an evolutionary context NLP started in
the mid 70s and has developed since then world-wide. That fact alone warrents
some investigation in that NLP is being taught to aid in the manipulation of
others (sales, politics,primary school teaching etc), isnt that a memetics
process? :-)

Some references (I have included Hall and Bateson as they strongly influenced
the early work as did F. Pearls (gestalt psych) and V. Satir (family

Bandler & Grinder (1975) "The Structure of Magic" Scientific Books.
Bandler & Grinder (1977) "The Structure of Magic Volume II" Scientific Books.
Bandler & Grinder (1975) "Patterns I - Hypnotic Techniques of M.Erickson" Meta
Bandler & Grinder (1977) "Patterns II" Meta Publications

All of the below have stemmed from these. The last two deal with eliciting
light trance states to help get the message across or to gather 'hidden'
information. Of the following the books on beliefs (Dilts), timelines
(James/Woodsmall), and submodalities add to the fundamentals of NLP.

Bandler & Grinder (1979) "Frogs into Princes" Meta Publications.
Bandler & MacDonald (1988) "An Insider's Guide To Sub-Modalities" Meta
Nadel,Haims, & Stempson (1990) "Sixth Sense" Prentice Hall Press.
Cameron-Bandler & Lebeau (1986) "The Emotional Hostage" FuturePace.
Dilts (1983) "Applications of NLP" Meta Publications.
Dilts (1983) "Roots of NLP" Meta Publications.
Dilts (1990) "Changing Belief Systems with NLP" Meta Publications.
Dilts.R.,Hallbom,T.,& Smith,S., (1990) "Beliefs: Pathways to Health and
Well-Being" Metamorphous Press.
Dilts (1991) "Tools for Dreamers" Meta Publications.
Jacobson,S., (1983) "Meta-Cation" Meta Publications.
Jacobson,S., (1986) "Meta-Cation Volume II" Meta Publications.
Jacobson,S., (1986) "Meta-Cation Volume III" Meta Publications.

(the above three volumes deal with education).

James,T., & Woodsmall,W., (1988) "Time Line Therapy and the Basis of
Personality" Meta Publications.
James,T., (1989) "The Secret of Creating Your Future" Advanced Neuro
Bateson,G., (1972) "Steps to an Ecology of Mind" Ballentine.
Bateson,G., (1980) "Mind and Nature: a necessary unity" Bantam.
Bateson,G., & Bateson M., (1987) "Angels Fear" Rider.
Hall,E.T., (1969) "The Hidden Dimension" Doubleday Anchor.
Hall,E.T., (1973) "The Silent Language" Doubleday Anchor.
Hall,E.T., (1977) "Beyond Culture" Doubleday Anchor.
Hall,E.T., (1984) "The Dance of Life" Doubleday Anchor.

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