Re: "Speed Seduction" revisited

Aaron Lynch (
Fri, 21 May 1999 14:56:23 -0500

Message-Id: <>
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:56:23 -0500
From: Aaron Lynch <>
Subject: Re: "Speed Seduction" revisited
In-Reply-To: <>

At 01:59 PM 5/21/99 -0400, Lawrence H. de Bivort wrote:
>On Fri, 21 May 1999, Aaron Lynch wrote:
>>At 12:13 PM 5/21/99 -0400, Lawrence H. de Bivort wrote:
>>>This matter of "seduction" prompts me to write.
>>>The creation of rapport or linkage between two people has little, I think,
>>>to do with memes. Rapport is simply a matter of creating the (real or
>>>false) sense of similarity with another person. This can be achieved
>>>Memes are something else: they are artifacts that disseminate themselves
>>>through the medium of people and other social organizations. They have
>>>several properties that enable them to do so. They _may_ utilize the
>>>dynamics of linkage to do so, but do not require it. Either way, linkage
>>>or rapport as such do not have memetic properties.
>Aaron Lynch:
>>Basically I agree, except on the terminological point of whether
>>artifactual replicators should be called memes in addition to or instead of
>>brain-stored information.
>Right, by by 'artifact' I only meant a 'thing' that has been created, not
>a 'natural thing.' I know that this has been a matter of some debate in
>memetic circles. I see memes as artifacts that transmit 'ideas' or beliefs
>through language and symbols.
>>The question of whether "Speed Seduction" tactics create rapport is a
>>matter of debate, however. And there is the matter of sexism, too.
>Thanks for the summary of "Speed Seduction" -- I hadn't heard of it until
>the present discussion. I can't tell from what you say whether the
>techniques recommended might be effective in establishing rapport. It
>sounds a bit like poorly-done NLP (I'm referring to the ill-formed
>embedded command). I would not consider an embedded command (poorly
>designed ot not) a meme, though, in the same way that any command is not a
>meme (i.e. it is not, among other things, self-replicating). "Influence"
>is not the same thing as "meme".

Thank you, Lawrence.

Yes, I agree: "influence" is not the same thing as meme transmission,
although it has been confused for such. Recursion is essential to
evolutionary replicator theories.

>I will not bother to comment on the moral or sexist aspects of this,
>other then to say that from a personal point of view it is always a shame
>to see bright (or even not so bright) people waste their talents on such

The insults that Ross Jeffries gave me came during an ostensible effort to
sell me his product. So regardless of the moral/sexist matters, I can
safely say that he shows little comprehension of how to establish rapport
with prospective customers.

--Aaron Lynch

This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)