Re: "Speed Seduction" revisited

Lawrence H. de Bivort (
Fri, 21 May 1999 13:59:52 -0400 (EDT)

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:59:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence H. de Bivort" <>
Subject: Re: "Speed Seduction" revisited
In-Reply-To: <>

On Fri, 21 May 1999, Aaron Lynch wrote:

>At 12:13 PM 5/21/99 -0400, Lawrence H. de Bivort wrote:

>>This matter of "seduction" prompts me to write.
>>The creation of rapport or linkage between two people has little, I think,
>>to do with memes. Rapport is simply a matter of creating the (real or
>>false) sense of similarity with another person. This can be achieved

>>Memes are something else: they are artifacts that disseminate themselves
>>through the medium of people and other social organizations. They have
>>several properties that enable them to do so. They _may_ utilize the
>>dynamics of linkage to do so, but do not require it. Either way, linkage
>>or rapport as such do not have memetic properties.

Aaron Lynch:

>Basically I agree, except on the terminological point of whether
>artifactual replicators should be called memes in addition to or instead of
>brain-stored information.

Right, by by 'artifact' I only meant a 'thing' that has been created, not
a 'natural thing.' I know that this has been a matter of some debate in
memetic circles. I see memes as artifacts that transmit 'ideas' or beliefs
through language and symbols.

>The question of whether "Speed Seduction" tactics create rapport is a
>matter of debate, however. And there is the matter of sexism, too.

Thanks for the summary of "Speed Seduction" -- I hadn't heard of it until
the present discussion. I can't tell from what you say whether the
techniques recommended might be effective in establishing rapport. It
sounds a bit like poorly-done NLP (I'm referring to the ill-formed
embedded command). I would not consider an embedded command (poorly
designed ot not) a meme, though, in the same way that any command is not a
meme (i.e. it is not, among other things, self-replicating). "Influence"
is not the same thing as "meme".

I will not bother to comment on the moral or sexist aspects of this,
other then to say that from a personal point of view it is always a shame
to see bright (or even not so bright) people waste their talents on such



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