FW: "Retarding the Progress" - A Call for Specifics

Gatherer, D. (D.Gatherer@organon.nhe.akzonobel.nl)
Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:56:14 +0100

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:56:14 +0100
From: "Gatherer, D. (Derek)" <D.Gatherer@organon.nhe.akzonobel.nl>
Subject: FW: "Retarding the Progress" - A Call for Specifics
To: "'memetics@mmu.ac.uk'" <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>

> Aaron from previous post:
> >> I will take this as a general objection rather than a demonstration
> of
> >> how
> >> using "the thought contagion metaphor" involved harmful disregard
> of
> >> linguistics or cognitive science in discussing the growth or
> decline
> >> of a
> >> specific movement in which "the thought contagion metaphor" has
> been
> >> applied.
> >>
> Derek in reply:
> >
> > Okay, then. You have generally disregarded linguistics, as
> >above. In your 1998 paper, you present calculus of mnemon
> instantiation
> >diagrams referring to the Hutterites. Therefore you confuse the
> >analysis of this specific case with your speculations concerning
> their
> >memory contents. Specific enough for you? I thought Paul had been
> as
> >specific as one could wish for already.
> Now Aaron again:
> I was not asking for an example of a movement to which I did not apply
> linguistics, rather, an example of a movement where the analysis of
> growth
> or decline was adversely affected by not applying linguistics.
> Derek:
> and therefore I say again, the Hutterites is an example of this. Your
> analysis of the growth and/or decline of the Hutterites is based on
> your speculations concerning the unobservable mnemons to which they
> are host. You applied your calculus of mnemon conjugations to this
> (you did, it's in your paper). Said calculus is based on a fallacious
> notion of mental storage which clearly contravenes the most important
> rule in post-war linguistics. Your analysis is worthless for that
> reason (and for the seveal other reasons Paul has already detailed and
> which you chose to ignore). Still not specific enough?????
> Aaron:
> We seem to be sliding back into a pattern in which I perceive that
> assertions are being misattributed to me.
> Derek:
> What?? I don't believe this!!! You come on this list, calling for
> specifics. You do it after you have already had 1500 words to make
> your case in the journal. But no, it's not enough. You want
> specifics. We give you specifics. You obfuscate, you attempt to
> drown the argument in verbiage. Now you fall back on your old tactic
> of accusing me of misattribution. Do I have to cut and paste the
> relevant sections of your article into a post and go through them line
> by line???? (Paul effectively did this anyway and you just turned
> round and said he had failed to answer your question!!!)
> Aaron:
> Therefore, I think we should
> again set our argument aside in order to avoid the furious futility we
> experienced before.
> Derek:
> No, Aaron, you started this so let's finish it. I was quite happy to
> let you have your 1500 words worth to reply to me. Fair's fair, you
> have a right to reply. But you started this thread. So let's look at
> what you have written. Either thought contagion theory is worth
> something or it isn't. Let's get down to it.
> Aaron:
> (I do think that the knowledge of baseball exists in
> the head even if this does not involve the phrase "knowledge of how to
> play
> baseball" being stored or in any fashion in the head.)
> Derek:
> So knowledge of baseball exisits in the head?? Okay, fair enough.
> Let's assume it does. As a mnemon? or not as a mnemon? How would you
> represent this in your calculus? (I think I know but I don't want to
> run the risk of misattributing........). And then 'knowledge of how
> to play baseball' is not 'stored or in any fashion in the head'? So
> does this fall into you category of mnemons of form 'awareness of
> x'????? or not??? 'Awareness of baseball'? 'Awareness of the
> statement three strikes and you're out'??????
> Let's have some ....... errr what's the word? yes....... specifics.
> Derek

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