Re: Feminism as a religion

Robert G. Grimes (
Sat, 05 Sep 1998 21:51:36 -0400

Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 21:51:36 -0400
From: "Robert G. Grimes" <>
Subject: Re: Feminism as a religion

Well, I try to refrain, but this week, because of the hurricane Earl, my power
and lights were off almost all day. Guess who the two "cablemen" were whom I
asked about the problem when they were working at a junction box? Yep, two
young ladies, very attractive, working in the rain and getting wet while they
talked to me in my automobile...

Now I was a telephone lineman when in between some years at college, and I
climbed poles with gaffs, pulled slack in open wire, etc., and I know how tough
that work is. These gals were doing it with aplomb and obviously were skilled
at their task. We "talked the language" together as my father was a 38 year
veteran of the Bell companies as a cableman and I've already mentioned that I
worked there also. If you call this easy work you just don't know what you are
talking about (unfortunately, I suspect this may be the case) as I've managed
departments with over 100 employees for many years, most of which were women,
and they did superb jobs, they did the dirty work, too, and I always knew to
whom I could go to get the job done. It was a shame that it was very difficult
to gain for them the same advantages that the men possessed, but I sorely
tried. There was obviously a double standard and they were not paid
commensurate with their responsibilities as compared to men. I worked very hard
to try to achieve this and scored some victories but there were just two years
to overcome and too many above me who were prejudiced sexually. Before I
retired, this began to come about, mainly because of the U.S. Government and the
labor laws, the EEOC, etc. I still feel wanting for these ladies who really
needed help...



Feminism is not only a legitimate leaning but a required one for anyone who
desires social justice in the world. To speak against it is not only nonsense,
it is laughable.



Steve wrote:

> At 11:33 AM 9/1/98 -0500, Aaron Lynch wrote:
> >
> >Your problem seems to be that you are criticizing "feminists" rather than
> >specific beliefs or scientific assertions. "Feminism" does not mean just
> >one thing. So rather than attempting to analyze "feminism," I suggest
> >analyzing specific ideas. For instance:
> "Feminism" may not mean just one thing. But, with only a very few exceptions
> (like Christina Hoff-Summers, Camila Paglia, etc, who get hounded out of the
> feminist movement by the sisterhood as not being "true" feminists), the
> different streams of feminism are, for the most part, dominated by the
> following assumptions:
> 1) Women are the moral superiors of men;
> 2) The "patriarchy" is responsible for the oppression of women.
> Women have no part to play in the creation of patriarchy.
> Aaron, I don't have much time at the moment to address in detail, the
> specific points you raise. But for the moment, let's have a brief look:
> >"Female genital mutilation should be abolished."
> A couple of years ago, I found an excellent article outlining a young girl's
> induction into womanhood. From memory, she was from a tribe in one of the
> African states. What was fascinating was how she looked forward to going
> through the procedure as a part of the process of "becoming a woman". This
> process, to her mind, was her "coming of age" when she ceased to be "just a
> little girl". In many ways she was a "victim" of peer pressure and, in turn,
> she became one of the enforcers of peer pressure. She sustained her
> culture's memes both as victim and as oppressor. Another extremely important
> dimension of female genital mutilation is that adult women play a central
> part in enforcing it. Yup, it is true that men often wield the knife (men
> are frequently expected to do women's dirty-work), but women supervise,
> pressure, cajole little girls into undergoing the process. It is never ever
> a case of men conspiring to do this to women but rather, men *and* women
> playing a part in the spreading of cultural memes that make everyone an
> equal participant. An important feature in the spread of memes is that
> everyone in a culture is somehow a participant.
> >"Marital rape should be outlawed."
> Again, there are several dimensions to this point which I don't have time,
> at the moment, to elaborate on. Briefly: Men and women choose each other.
> Women, like men, should take responsibility for the choices they make.
> Violence should and is outlawed. If a man beats his wife because she refuses
> him sex, then he is breaking the law. Why should government intrude any
> further than that? If sex is rape, then marrying for money is prostitution.
> >"Women should get equal pay for equal work."
> The difficult, dangerous and dirty jobs are done by men. These are the jobs
> that are unpopular and, which should pay high salaries to attract the men
> that have traditionally been expected to be the bread-winners. Market forces
> rule. Engineers, welders, etc will be on site in the heat and the dust while
> clerical jobs will be performed in air-conditioned offices. Clerical jobs
> don't pay as well, but they're very much easier to do and, they're less
> physically demanding. So, where do women tend to work - on site, or in
> air-conditioned offices?
> Market forces rule.
> My sister, whose case is fairly typical, is a feminist and was a chemical
> engineer. She went through university and earned her degree. She got married
> recently. She stopped working to become a devoted, full-time mum. In doing
> this, she pulled herself out of the career lifestyle, and did not have to
> bother with retaining her skills and building on her engineering experience.
> Her marketability was eroding. Why should an employer hire her over an
> equally qualified engineer who will not go on maternity leave and, who will
> safely be expected to devote his life and long hours to making sure the job
> gets done? Why should an employer hire someone who has the freedom to choose
> stay-at-home memes over someone who has no choice but to be driven by career
> memes?
> Market forces rule.
> For women, career is a pick-and-choose option. In the backs of their minds,
> they know that culture allows them to be stay-at-home mums. Men do not have
> this luxury. Women have more memes to pick and choose from. Men are confined
> by the career memes. For men, work is not something you do if you like,
> something you do if your fancy takes you. For men, work is a matter of
> survival. And for this, men are paid more.
> Market forces rule.
> Because men do not have the sorts of freedoms that women do, they are more
> likely to work full time, while women's freedoms allow them to work part
> time. To what extent has this been taken into account when determining the
> 73 cents (or whatever) in the dollar that women earn?
> Aaron, your own book refers to "marry money memes". What is the role of
> these memes in the so-called 73 cents in the dollar that women earn?
> In your book you also refer to the female courtship role that you call
> "girlish helplessnes" in terms of its effect as a family man finder. The
> bottom line is that a woman's choice in helplessness together with the
> expectation that the man will rescue her becomes the reality that makes men
> more able to compete in the world of management and takes away from women,
> the ability to move beyond the so-called "glass ceiling". All feeding back
> to affect women's opportunities and salaries and promotions (actually, this
> is where I bring my own ideas into play, as defined in my web site - that
> is, that the memes we choose to habituate become the memes that form our
> personalities. When women choose helplessness memes, they habituate those
> memes that conflict with the survival memes).
> >"All oppression comes from the patriarchy."
> The success of patriarchy involves both men and women, equally. Men and
> women are equal participants in the spread of memes, even though memes tend
> to be gender-specialised. To suggest that patriarchy is something that men
> do to women is to belittle women, to trivialise their role and to make them
> appear less than what they really are.
> >"We need to establish a matriarchal world devoid of males."
> No culture can survive on "nurturance" memes alone. My own view is that men
> are the producers of variety and women the filters of variety, and this is
> because the mind-body relationship *predisposes* men and women to these
> roles (ie, it's not genetically programmed). When you do away with the
> producers of variety, change, etc, society will gradually devolve. So, for
> any matriarchal society devoid of males - good luck.
> >"Women should have the right to vote."
> There is an argument emerging from within the men's movement that women
> should have to *earn* the right to vote. When men are expected to fight in
> wars to protect country and womenfolk, when men do the dangerous, dirty jobs
> while women have the pick-and-choose memes that land them at home or in
> comfy, air-conditioned offices, then, the argument goes, women are not
> earning their right to vote. There is also another argument that says that
> even stay-at-home housewives make decisions about which schools to send
> their children, how to spend the family income, etc, and, these decisions
> should also play a part earning the right to vote. The women's vote put Bill
> Clinton into power. Have feminists been honest and responsible in relation
> to the controversies surrounding Clinton? The controversies surrounding
> Paula Jones, Monica Lewinsky, etc have left feminists silent, and their
> hypocrisy with regard to these matters suggests that their manner of
> politics is not exactly responsible. For men like me, who appreciate
> independent, free-thinking, and responsible women, the right to vote is an
> inextricable part of such a mind-set. But, it is fair to ask ourselves, in
> light of the Clinton saga, are feminists behaving responsibly? Are they
> setting an example that *earns* women the right to vote?
> >These beliefs have different prevalences in society at large and among
> >those calling themselves feminists. They can also be analyzed in terms of
> >their specific transmission mechanisms. You may also find yourself
> >believing in some of these assertions while disbelieving others. If you
> >talk about "feminism," you might be talking about one set of ideas and your
> >discussion partners may be talking about a completely different set of
> >ideas. Clarity would be best served by discussing specific memes, and by
> >defining meme complexes in terms of their component memes.
> Religions are memes that provide component memes that compel people to act
> in the interests of the religion's survival. Feminism is no different. It is
> a religion in the same sense, peddling the same calibre of nonesense. For
> example, we have the following types of virulent mind-viruses:
> 1) All men are rapists;
> 2) All sex is rape;
> 3) Women are oppressed by men;
> 4) "Domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women
> between ages 15 and 44 in the United States - more than car accidents,
> muggings, and
> rapes combined. (Uniform Crime Reports, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
> 1991)"
> Some of feminism's memes are one-sided exagerations that omit the full
> picture, and ignore women's roles - eg, "all men are rapists" - ignores the
> fact that *some* men are rapists, that men are expected to protect women
> from rapists and that women often *choose* rapists as husbands (when a woman
> chooses a wife-beater, she casts her vote in favour of what she thinks all
> men should be).
> Other memes, such as the fourth one citing FBI statistics are pure, blatant
> fabrication. The reality is that men also, are victims of domestic violence
> and, that domestic violence is more complex than men beating up on women. DV
> is a systemic phenomenon where little boys and girls learn patterns of DV
> from their parents - and if single parents are more often female, then
> little boys get beat up on by their mothers, and little boys grow into men
> who faithfully carry on the tradition.
> Stephen Springette
> ______________________________________________
> Newton's Laws of Emotion:
> There can be no complexity without simplicity
> ______________________________________________
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Bob Grimes Jacksonville, Florida

Man is not in control, but the man who knows he is not in control is more in control...

Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore....."

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