Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA22346 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:29:17 GMT X-Originating-IP: [188.8.131.52] From: "Steve Drew" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: email@example.com Subject: Re: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:23:42 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F80xSQWBLYu7AHfo98x00014ac8@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Feb 2002 21:23:43.0046 (UTC) FILETIME=[E0E19E60:01C1B59D] Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:30:50 -0800
From: "Grant Callaghan" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:06:14 +0000
>name of the game today is oursourcing.† Let specialists do all the
>work because they have found ways to do it cheaper, faster and better
>large corporation.† This is what is changing the way work is done these
>- -- not marching in the streets shouting slogans.
>>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:55:36 -0000
>From: Vincent Campbell <email@example.com>
>Subject: RE: ply to Grant
> <If the employees could get together and vote their stock
>collectively, they could change just about any policy a company has.>
> 'If' is the key word indeed.
> Ah, one of the many corporate euphemisms for jobcuts.† It's a bit
>like collatoral damage in military jargon.
>Outsourcing is another word for paying people starvation wages. they
>it cos there is some poor sod ready to take thier place if they donít
>it, and no social security. Things may be ok in the West ( though we
>without our problems), but they sure ainít in other places.
>And no i'm not left wing, i just don't blind myself to the fact that
>capitalism has its problems, as well as its benefits. If the win win
>scenario was applied it might help. Unfortunatyly, trade is rarely
>equals, so the win win scenario is not used.
>In a world where conditions are unequal, there are few places where
between equals.† In Mexico, next door to where I live, the wage for bus
drivers, for example is four dollars a day.† The factories that have
set up there due to the maquiladora program and NASFTA pay their workers
more than the going wage.† For the people living there, those aren't
starvation wages.† They are only starvation wages compared to what
the U.S. get paid.† Well, the rest of the world is not going to just
paying their people U.S. wages and the people who are starving for lack
jobs have two choices: they can emmigrate from their own country to one
pays better or they take whatever job they can get at home.<
Most people are not in the position to emigrate, even if we would be
prepared to take them. Nor was i talking about paying US wages, but wages
that are relative to the economy of their country.
>I watched the situation in Japan in Taiwan since WWII.† When I went to
Taiwan in 1960, the going wage for a full-time house maid was $25
month.† And they felt grateful to get it.† As Japanese and American
companies moved in to take advantage of low wages, the price for skilled
labor rose steadily as the skills became more difficult and the number
such laborers became more scarce due to the increasing number of jobs.
I left, the second time in 1989, the going rate for skilled labor was
a month, and you could hardly find anyone willing to work as a house
The same thing happened in Japan, only sooner.† As the Japanese
their electronics and automobile industries, with help from the U.S.,
totally destroyed industry after WWII they went from being some of the
cheapest labor on the planet to what is now some of the most expensive.
This is what happens when international corporations rush to poor
to take advantage of the labor situation.† The competition for skilled
causes the wages to rise for everyone.† Now the Japanese have to do most
their manufacturing in China because they have priced their own labor
the market.† They can't afford to make those nifty electronics products
home anymore because it would make them too expensive on the world
China is next.† The big companies from Japan, America, and Europe are
flocking to China to take advantage of its cheap labor.† The poor
who are starving in areas outside of Guandung, Fujian and Shanghai are
working for slave wages because it's better than staying at home and
starving for lack of a job.† That's their only choice.† If we kept our
factories at home they would have no choice.
The same people who once benefitted from the world market in Taiwan are
building factories in Shanghai and Guandung because the labor market in
Taiwan has grown too expensive.† There are over 60,000 Taiwanese in
who all together have invested over 100 billion dollars to set up
there.† They are doing the same thing in Shanghai and Guandung that they
in Taiwan.† It is raising the bar for skilled labor and cheap labor
That is what capitalism does for countries full of poor people.† You may
find the disparity of wages in the beginning as something criminal, but
people who are able to work don't feel that way.
Sure, everyone would like to make American or European wages, or even
Japanese or Taiwanese wages.† But that takes time and capitalism is just
about the only way I know to get there.† Marxism didn't help China raise
wages of their people, nor did it in Russia and Eastern Europe.
Even Cuba is still in a time warp they blame on the United States, even
though the so called ban on trading with them only applies to trading
the U.S.† They can and do trade with Mexico and the rest of South and
Central America as well as Europe and Russia.† Curiously, the U.S.
great deal of its produce from Mexico and I sometimes go down there
to buy medicine because the government of Mexico controls the price and
medicine is much cheaper down there.† Cuba could get both food and
from Mexico at a better price than they can get it from the U.S.† So
the stifling effects of the embargo?† It's all the effect of Castro
to let capitalism into his country.† He wants to control everything and
that's incompatible with free trade.
Almost every instance of capitalism being a detrament is due to
misusing the economic system to make a few people rich.† They borrow on
international market and put the money in their own pockets instead of
building the infrastructure that would attract more capital from
and raise the quality of life for their workers.† That's not the fault
capitalism.† That the fault of greedy politicians.
Other countries take all the money they can borrow and spend it on guns
suppress the people they swore to govern.† Then they turn around and
the rich countries for the lack of schools and infrastructure to change
lives of the people.† Foreign investors are not going to invest money in
country that is perpetually war torn.† It's like pouring down a rat
They get no return on their investment.† That takes away any incentive
invest there.† The leaders of such countries, however, turn around and
the rich countries that tried to invest for their plight because they
pay the interest on the loans they took out.<
I canít believe some of the things you have just said. On the weapons issue,
part of the reason for the weapons sales is due to our governments. We need
to defray the costs of our weapons systems some how. One way is to give aid,
which has a high chance of being used to by weapons. This makes the weapons
appear cheaper than they actually cost to make by hiding the government
funding. Aid has also been tied to civil infrastructure. British governments
have tied aid to the use of British engineering companies in building dams
in SE Asia.
The guns that are used to supress the people are also handing in cowing
strikers and union organisers in the factories producing goods for the West.
>Well, if those politicians would have governed their countries as well
Japan and Taiwan governed theirs, they wouldn't have the problem in the
first place.† And the only route I can see to turning it around is a
government and a sound fiscal and economic policy.† In other words,
I will try not to lecture you on your area of expertise, but i thiught that
in Japan and taiwan part of the problem is that they still have a culture
that still regards helping others as a virtue rather than a burden.
>Nobody can just walk in and make them act that way.† They have to do it
themselves, as Russia just learned the hard way.† If the people who win
right to govern the country don't do it right, criminals will step in
take advantage of the situation to enrich themselves at the expense of
everyone else.† And you can bet they won't blame themselves for what
to their country.
So for all its ills, the combination of democracy and capitalism is the
hope for the world.† No, it will never be perfect.† But what is?† There
a reason why the Chinese, after pushing the Marxist maxims down the
of their people for 60 years finally embraced capitalism (economically
not politically -- they still use the dictatorship of the proletariat as
necessary part of government) and joined the WTO to become one of the
instead of the have nots.
Slogans and riots will never get investors to build factories in a place
where people have no jobs.† Peace and low wages will bring them running.
Taiwan became one of the richest countries for its size by giving land
the tiller and encouraging the building of factoris by foreign companies
through a plan where they paid no taxes for the first five years.† At
end of that time, they started charging rather high taxes and the people
built the factories, having made their profit, left and built elsewhere.
Meanwhile Taiwan had a country full of skilled laborors and modern
factories.† They haven't looked back since.
That, in my opinion, is how you solve world hunger.† Not by screaming or
rioting or blaming outsiders for what the people of a country do to each
other.† If you don't do what has been proven to work, you'll be
having a system that doesn't work.† Show me a system that works (not one
that WOULD work IF) and I'll support it.† The rest is hog wash.<
Just because something has worked in the past does not mean that it will
continue to do so in the future. The world now is quite different from when
Japan and Taiwan embarked on their road to success. The population of the
world is significantly larger than it was, which puts greater strain on many
As i said earlier the capitalist system is quite happy to deal with
autocratic and dictatorial regimes, as this guarentees a continuous,
uniterupted supply of goods and components, or indeed oil. eg Shell in
Capitalism can work, but not hte unregulated free for all that tends to
happen when a company gains an effective monopoly, or can escape the
scrutiny of regulators. Eg, AOL is suing Microsoft for the losses incurred
by Netscape due Microsofts abuse of market domination. Enron was pressing
for more deregulation of buisness rules. Not too suprising with 20/20
If i ever find a solution, you will be the first to know, but your scenario
that capitalism works was far too simplistic. Iím even tempted to think you
did it as awind up. : ).
Unregulated capitalism poses a threat to each and every one of us, as the
only thing is the bottom line, not how you get there. Or is chemical
dumping, polluting drinking water and air acceptable. I seem to have heard
that California has some of the toughest enviro regs in the world. Solution
- export your crap. And before any one thinks iím yank bashing iíve tried to
use a mix of examples, some from the UK to show the UK is just as bad.
People are rioting and demonstrating as they want restrictions on how
companies are allowed to poisen them. Not to much to ask..
As this topic could fill a couple of libraries, iíll stop.
Join the worldís largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Feb 14 2002 - 21:39:02 GMT