Re: Memes Meta-Memes and Politics 1 of 3 (1988, updates 2002)

From: Scott Chase (
Date: Tue Feb 12 2002 - 04:43:50 GMT

  • Next message: Keith Henson: "Re: Why memeoids?"

    Received: by id EAA12744 (8.6.9/5.3[ref] for from; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:49:25 GMT
    X-Originating-IP: []
    From: "Scott Chase" <>
    Subject: Re: Memes Meta-Memes and Politics 1 of 3 (1988, updates 2002)
    Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:43:50 -0500
    Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
    Message-ID: <>
    X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2002 04:43:51.0067 (UTC) FILETIME=[DE0C96B0:01C1B37F]
    Precedence: bulk

    >From: John Wilkins <>
    >Subject: Re: Memes Meta-Memes and Politics 1 of 3 (1988, updates 2002)
    >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:45:21 +1100
    >On Tuesday, February 12, 2002, at 10:05 AM, <> wrote:
    >>In a message dated 2/10/2002 11:23:12 AM Central Standard Time, Keith
    >><> [writes in thread Re: Memes Meta-Memes and
    >>Politics 1 of
    >>3 (1988, updates 2002)]:
    >>> [Not to detract from Dawkins, but as I have dug deeper into the
    >>> Dawkins himself recognized William Hamilton as more of an original
    >>> thinker. For certain though, Dawkins made the work of Hamilton,
    >>> Trivers and a host of other players available to ordinary people with
    >>> popular works.]
    >>Hi Keith.
    >>Credit for evolutionary replicator theory should also go to F.T. Cloak,
    >>1973 paper developed evolutionary replicator theory for both biological
    >>molecules and culture. The paper not only develops evolutionary cultural
    >>replicator theory, but also evolutionary biological replicator theory.
    >>I take it that giving Dawkins credit for popularizing is not meant to
    >>from Cloak, Hamilton, Trivers, etc. either.
    >>--Aaron Lynch
    >>Cloak, F. T. 1973. "Elementary Self-Replicating Instructions and Their
    >>Toward a Radical Reconstruction of General Anthropology through a
    >>Theory of Natural Selection." Paper Presented to the Ninth International
    >>Congress of Anthropological and Ethnographical Sciences, Chicago.
    >>version online at
    >Thanks for putting that online, Aaron.
    >I think some credit should also be given to Donald Campbell and Stephen
    >Toulmin. Campbell did his first evolution of culture work in 1960, and
    >Toulmin's 1972 _Human Understanding_ is an almost complete treatment of
    >the evolution of culture (he calls memes "transmits"). Of course, Scott
    >Chase will now tell us that it was first done by Nietzsche or
    >Schopenhauer or Porphyry :-)
    Nope. I'd like to give Cloak a serious gander, but I'd appeciate if someone
    would give Julian Huxley's stuff on "noogenetics" a look for its putative
    proto-memetic bases? I'm still hung up on his use of a term like
    "self-reproduction" or "self-reproducing" and how this usage ties into what
    he says about mentifacts (and artifacts and socifacts) and noosystems.
    Huxley's essays found in _Knowledge, Morality and Destiny_ (1957. A Mentor
    Book. New American Library. New York) are "Man's place and role in nature"
    based on a paper from 1954 and published in 1955. His essay "Evolution,
    cultural and biological" was published in 1955. These dates come from
    footnotes in his book.

    I have been enthralled by the engram in the past, yet warmed to mnemon. I'm
    reading Semon's follow-up to _The Mneme_ which is called _Mnemic
    Psychology_, at least in the translation. Apparently Julian Huxley had
    published a review of _The Mneme_. I wouldn't mind tracking that one down.
    Vernon Lee's introduction mentions Semon's being Haeckel's student and his
    journey to Australia.

    Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Feb 12 2002 - 04:58:58 GMT