Re: Why memeoids?

From: Scott Chase (
Date: Mon Feb 11 2002 - 03:18:13 GMT

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    From: "Scott Chase" <>
    Subject: Re: Why memeoids?
    Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:18:13 -0500
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    >From: "Ronan Dodds" <>
    >Subject: Re: Why memeoids?
    >Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:27:53 -0800
    >On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:06:21
    > Kenneth Van Oost wrote:
    > >
    > >----- Original Message -----
    > >From: Ronan Dodds <>
    > >> >Hi Scott, Keith,
    > >> >Yes, that sounds strange to me too, though !
    > >> >Especially now that Turkey is trying to solve many interior problems
    > >> >order to get a membership of the Euopean Economical Union.
    > >> >Their warts about religion, torture, imprisonment, Kurds, etc must be
    > >> >dealed with.
    > >> >One step in that direction is that Turkey allowed NATO warplanes use
    > >> >their fields to fight Irak. In the war on terrorism too, I think.
    > >
    > >> Hold on a minute - allowing NATO to use their country is a HUGE wart!
    > >West has a history of covering up and colluding in Turkey's human rights
    > >abuses. NATO have a history of totally disregarding human right
    > >
    > >Hello Ronan, let me be the first to say you are quite welcome!
    >Hi, cheers for the welcome.
    > >Oh wee! I see you point, though !
    > >>From the Western ( Nato) perspective a logic assumption to make I
    > >suppose. Turkey, by allowing the planes to use their ground showed it-
    > >self ' worthty ' to join, lets say a few international institutions.
    > >
    > >>From the outside looking in, yes, allowing the planes in is a huge wart,
    > >and some more islamitic countries condenmded the whole thing.
    > >But you have to remerber that Turkey lies upon a political/ religious/
    > >ideological/ cultural/... fracture.
    > >Squeezed between Europe and Asia, IMO the government has chosen
    > >for the less painful solution.
    >I'm unsure of what you mean by this (I've not read the whole thread, and
    >I'm not up-to-date on Turkey). What 'solutions' are there to choose
    >between? If you mean helping NATO was less painful, I'm sure you're right
    >in some regards (as NATO would quite happily create unrest, stage a coup or
    >ultimately bomb any country which doesn't fall into line with it's own
    >values). Which 'solution' are we talking about?
    > >Turkey needs in a way the European Economical Unity to stay out of
    > >the control hemisphere of the East.
    >I'm not sure what this means either. Do you mean the control of the
    >Islamic world? Or the East economically?
    > >The West did indeed cover up the human rights abuses in order to get
    > >the support they wanted. But now that out of the way, voices are heard
    > >throughout the community that if Turkey wants to join in on the benefits
    > >of one European Market the problem of the abuse must be settled.
    >'Out of the way' in what sense? The media over here still covers up these
    >abuses. Very little is ever reported about the plight of the Kurds and
    >about the regular invasions of Iraqi Kurdistan by Turkey in order to commit
    >genocide upon Kurdish people. Turkey is still a good customer for Western
    >arms companies, which at the end of the day are turned upon the Kurdish
    >people. I would be very suspicious if the EU decided that Turkey was
    >'clean' with regards to human rights, especially considering the way in
    >which Western bodies such as the EU consider themselves to be defenders of
    >human rights. I'm not sure where you're from, but in my country at least
    >(UK), Kurds fleeing places like Turkey are treated like criminals and
    >deported. There are people being deported to Iraq regularly, because it is
    >a 'safe country', despite the fact that they're our official enemy,
    >supposedly for their human rights abuses. I suppose that, should turkey
    >get EU membership, there would be the advan!
    >age for Turkish Kurds that they could move to other European countries
    >freely (or would this not be part of the bargain?). Anyway i suppose the
    >point I'm making is that, at the end of the day, the EU themselves could do
    >more to solve HR abuse by taking action themselves, rather than using cash
    >as an incentive for a bunch of genocidal lunatics to change their ways.
    >However, it wouldn't be profitable for them, so they don't take action.
    > >It is however to my understanding, that such solutions are hard to come
    > >by, because the ' why's ' of the Turkey 's behaviors are related to
    > >being, history and culture. In a way, to resolve some, they must change
    > >their constitution all together. And to that fact, some fractions
    > > military,
    > >religious leaders,...) are not eager to lay down their weapons.
    >A simple course of action which would go some way towards solving the
    >problem would be place an arms embargo on Turkey, and to allow free flow of
    >refugees from Turkey to enter our countries. It is telling that we allow
    >goods from all over the world to pass through our borders freely, yet we
    >won't extend this privelige (right?) to human beings. Just to get back
    >onto memetics, a theme I've been developing recently is how private
    >property defends itself and extends its influence. Certain ideas (or
    >memes) reinforce property rights, while private property (wealth)
    >determines to a large extent which memes people are exposed to. I'd be
    >interested in any comments on this idea (this is putting it very simply, so
    >i may start another thread on this idea, although I think Marx got there
    > >
    > >And in regard to Nato, I agree totally. Nato just defends what is their
    > >' right ' ( so it thinks) and interests, whatever they may be.
    > >And when it should have moved where it was really necessary, they
    > >went in, unarmed ! Jeeezes !
    >Again, I think this could relate to the point I'm developing about property
    >supporting memes supporting property and so on.
    > >Enjoy the list,
    >Thanks very much, I'm enjoying it already. Sorry If the post is a bit
    >long, human rights abuse is one of my pet hates, so its got me going :)
    >Take care
    Thanx for the critical view on Turkey, but haven't I read this post already
    a couple times in the past hour? I think it's replicating.

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