Re: Apoptosis

From: Kenneth Van Oost (
Date: Sat Feb 09 2002 - 19:44:24 GMT

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    From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <>
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    Subject: Re: Apoptosis
    Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 20:44:24 +0100
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Steve Drew <>

    Hi Steve, thanks for posting this,

    If i understand you correctly, you seem to be attributing a want to a meme.
    how could a meme commit suicide. It is not a *thing* in the sense of that a
    person is ie something that the meme influences or that we choose to accept.
    You can have a meme for commitng suicide, but a meme that commited suicide
    would be a lousy replicator IMO. Suicide requires a decision, and memes
    don't decide, they replicate or fail.

    << Not so mush a want, more a fundamental !
    Like we as human beings seek for knowledge and wisdom, memes would
    seek ways to propagate. Committing suicide would be one them.
    They would be lousy replicators, but not in the understanding that other
    memes would profit by or take advantage of the free space/ niche.
    It would be a lousy replicator indeed, but not in the whole of a meme-
    plex, where it should strenghten or weaken the complex in order to let
    itself propagate.

    And as to the decision- making ability, Benjamin Libet expresses that
    the mind could made the decision for ' you '!
    If the intention to do something only is due after that the brain already
    decided to go ahead with whatever, if thus the brain takes the decision
    before ' you ' ever will, than is our behavior not lead by the free will,
    but by the unconscious handling of the brain.
    In that way the brain creates an illusion of a conscious self that is master
    over its deeds, where in the meanwhile the real control- power lies by
    the unconsciousness.

    Of course, this can only be, if we accept that memes equals thoughts.
    A suicidal meme, could thus be part of the in the above expressed
    notion. If thus the brain can decide to extinguich memes/ thoughts, why
    NOT order them to kill themselves !?
    Moreover, according to John Cairns cells may possess mechanisms
    within for choosing which mutation will occur_ why not saying, that
    braincells do possess those same mechanisms !?

    My point is, if the brain is capable of to make decisions without any
    interaction of consciousness, to which extend can it do more !?
    We trust every day upon conscient made decisions to get around, but
    who hold the leach, ' you ' or your brain !?
    Such an obscur process has been called by Dennett the ' itself ' of Self.
    Consciousness and the unconscient mind are NOT two seperate, in
    competetion being enteties, but parts of a greater whole.
    The ' you ' exist out of braintissue, but than well braintissue which is
    ' subjectived ' by the unique process of nature_ the same notion I
    attribute to memes.

    Maybe in a way, Parkinson- disease and Altzheimer may be due to the
    failure of memes !
    Certain braincells die slowly but relentless. What if those cells are
    ' ordered ' ( memetically ) to kill themselves !?
    And why not saying that the effectormechanisms are already present
    in the thought/ memes itself_ primed memetical apoptosis !?
    Highly speculative, I know !
    But we need this in order to get around the genetic analogies....

    Many regards,


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