Re: ply to Grant

From: Jeremy Bradley (
Date: Sat Feb 09 2002 - 09:50:59 GMT

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    Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 20:50:59 +1100
    From: Jeremy Bradley <>
    Subject: Re: ply to Grant
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    At 07:21 AM 8/02/02 -0800, you wrote:
    >>Subject: Re: ply to Grant
    >>Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 22:35:29 +1100
    >>At 07:21 AM 7/02/02 -0800, you wrote:
    >>Jeremy wrote
    >> >>My question was to do with the relative nature of fitness. It is the
    >> >>as my questioning of other subjective dichotomies.
    >> >>I hope that I have made myself more clear this time Grant
    >> >>Jeremy
    >> >>
    >>Grant replied
    >> >I wrote that reply to someone who remarked on a statement that
    >> >cultural change could be worth billions. I even forget who the original
    >> >author was. But my point was that this is already happening. Apparently
    >> >remark grated on what appear to be leftist leanings.
    >>Thanks for your reply grant. I have stored it away in my folder of most
    >>interesting posts. But realy does my ecological preocupation make me
    >>deserving of your acusation of being "leftist"? And isn't the left/right
    >>thing jist another divisive, and subjective, dichotomy?
    >I'm sorry I appeared to have stuck you in a box, but I was just reacting to
    >a single statement that sounded like you condemned capitalists and didn't
    >want them agrandized. I'm neither with you nor against you on that score. I
    >can see where capitalism has brought us and I can also see what that has
    >done to the environment we inhabit. But on the subject of memes, commerce
    >spreads memes faster than small groups talking to each other and industry
    >invents new memes faster than just about any other group except scientists.
    >Businesses make up small cultures built around the making and selling of
    >products and services. All people in Congress and on Wall Street are
    >talking about these days is the unique culture of Enron -- a company that
    >had a two-faced set of standards and coerced the people who were supposed to
    >regulate it into ignoring their duty to make a quick buck. Now it has gone
    >from being a symbol of success to a warning to all companies of how NOT to
    >run a business. I don't think the memes that drove Enron will die quickly,
    >even thought the company has. Greed is too much a part of human nature.
    >But then, what is the difference, really, between greed and selfishness?
    >That, too is part of our genetic inheritance.
    >We (humans) are not the first species to destroy the environment we inhabit.
    > Almost every large animal over produces and destroys its habitat
    >periodically. Nature's way of dealing with that is to cause the near
    >extinction of such animals. It's called the "J" curve and has been seen
    >everywhere from petri dishes full of bacteria to islands crowded with deer
    >and goats. Cattle in America often overgraze the range they live on and
    >have to be culled by humans just to save it from them. The old tales about
    >wars between cattlemen and sheep herders was about which animal was going to
    >have access to the land. Cattlemen thought sheep destroyed the grass with
    >their grazing and left cattle to starve.
    >In this world of human population pushing that J curve almost straight up,
    >we are just doing what every species before us has done. We are overgrazing
    >the land we inhabit. The only hope I see for stopping that before we make
    >ourselves nearly extinct is to use the memes of culture to spread the word
    >there is a better way. Whether we can do that in time to save ourselves is
    >the question. When the line on the chart of population increase is going
    >straight up, that's the sign we're do for an attitude adjustment. And when
    >we are seeing a doubling of population in the lifetime of an individual,
    >that charts out at a pretty steep curve.
    >We can't survive unless we stop being so successful. We have to turn our
    >success in a different direction and propagate memes that limit population
    >growth and invent new ways to use the land. We must become stewards of it
    >instead of consumers. A lot of people will probably have to die before we
    >come to grips with the problem. But it is a problem that must engage the
    >whole population of earth and not just a few people at the top.
    >That's my rant for the day. Again, I'm sorry I took your statement as a
    >political position rather than a broader viewpoint. It's probably an
    >outgrowth of my arguements with the anti-globalism crowd who keep using
    >Marxist arguements to support their positions. They're still fighting the
    >management-labor wars in a world where labor is rapidly becoming management
    >through stock options and retirement plans based on stock ownership.
    >Cheers, Grant
    I think I love you Grant

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