Re: Apoptosis

From: Steve Drew (
Date: Fri Feb 08 2002 - 19:17:33 GMT

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    Subject: Re: Apoptosis
    Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 19:17:33 +0000
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    Hi Kenneth

    >Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:22:42 +0100
    From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <>
    Subject: Re: Apoptosis

    - ----- Original Message -----
    From: Steve Drew <>
    >That memes can die out i don't think is in much doubt. Artefacts left
    >from previous civilisations often prompt hte question "what was it
    >similarly with ritualistic burial etc. We view them outside of thier
    >culture, and so it means nothing. Sometimes  some of the the cultural
    >can be revived such as ancient Egypt etc

    << Yes, but IMO those left behind artefacts, contain memes. We must
    just retract them from whatever will be found.
    We have the knowledge and the expertise to do so !
    In that way, memes don 't die_ the information that made the meme
    is no longer avaible to us_ it is not dead ! ( Suspended... what !?)

    And as more we discover about the past, the more all forgotten memes
    will be ' born ' again; will be re- discovered.
    And even if such a meme didn 't leave any trace on paper or in
    still IMO, we can deduct its presence by exploring others.<

    These could be considered new memes in a certain light, in that our
    understanding of the artifact and hence the society it comes from is not
    perfect. It follows from this that hte memes *resurected* from the past
    society ar e approximations or corruptions of the original. In the Egyptian
    texts we may have a description of an act etc, but we do not have the
    cultural filter that the Ancient Egyptians had and hence it would be
    syrprising if our interpretaton is 100% accurate.

    >( An analogy would be the disminishing in gravity of a very distant star
    if a large object ( a planet) in orbit surrounds it. We would not see
    planet but we should deduct it presence).

    >Not being  a biologist, i don't know. What i would note is that we
    need to
    >mive away from some of the biological metaphors that are being used. I
    >trouble thinking of a meme that commits suicide. Even the suicide meme
    needs  to propogate to exist. :- )

    << Yes, my point exactly !
    That is one reason for my questions though, to find ' other' metaphors.
    We can do a thought- experiment_ what would it feel like to be a meme!?

    Our imaginition is not big enough, all our attempts will fail in the
    We start for such a trial always from our own experience. I have no
    trouble thinking of a meme that commits suicide_ because we can
    ' find out' ( associate) how we should behave just before jumping of
    the cliff.<

    If i understand you correctly, you seem to be attributing a want to a meme.
    how could a meme commit suicide. It is not a *thing* in the sense of that a
    person is ie something that the meme influences or that we choose to accept.
    You can have a meme for commitng suicide, but a meme that commited suicide
    would be a lousy replicator IMO. Suicide requires a decision, and memes
    don’t decide, they replicate or fail.

    >The question is indeed, how should it be like to be a meme for the
    What would be in a sense the ' memetic ' for the meme !?
    ( What would be the aching feeling for pain itself).

    Thomas Nagel_ " Subectivity exists upon the level of individuals, but
    also on the level of species, like bats, or people.
    And that is just the point. Like we only can feel how it is like to see,
    in a specific way, red or taste cola_ in the same way a bat feels
    bat !
    Bats do have a species- specific point of view and that differs in a
    radical way from our typical human one.
    IMO, memes too, maybe have such a specific point of view_ call
    it selfish !"<

    I dont think it is memes that have a point of view. I think that the
    combination of memes each of us has influences the way we see the world to a
    certain extent, and that as the memes we have change over time, so too can
    the way we look atthe world





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