Re: Apoptosis

From: Kenneth Van Oost (
Date: Thu Feb 07 2002 - 18:22:42 GMT

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    From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <>
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    Subject: Re: Apoptosis
    Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:22:42 +0100
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Steve Drew <>
    > That memes can die out i don't think is in much doubt. Artefacts left
    > from previous civilisations often prompt hte question "what was it for?",
    > similarly with ritualistic burial etc. We view them outside of thier
    > culture, and so it means nothing. Sometimes some of the the cultural
    > can be revived such as ancient Egypt etc

    << Yes, but IMO those left behind artefacts, contain memes. We must
    just retract them from whatever will be found.
    We have the knowledge and the expertise to do so !
    In that way, memes don 't die_ the information that made the meme
    is no longer avaible to us_ it is not dead ! ( Suspended... what !?)

    And as more we discover about the past, the more all forgotten memes
    will be ' born ' again; will be re- discovered.
    And even if such a meme didn 't leave any trace on paper or in artefacts,
    still IMO, we can deduct its presence by exploring others.
    ( An analogy would be the disminishing in gravity of a very distant star
    if a large object ( a planet) in orbit surrounds it. We would not see the
    planet but we should deduct it presence).

    > Not being a biologist, i don't know. What i would note is that we need to
    > mive away from some of the biological metaphors that are being used. I
    > trouble thinking of a meme that commits suicide. Even the suicide meme
    needs to propogate to exist. :- )

    << Yes, my point exactly !
    That is one reason for my questions though, to find ' other' metaphors.
    We can do a thought- experiment_ what would it feel like to be a meme!?

    Our imaginition is not big enough, all our attempts will fail in the end.
    We start for such a trial always from our own experience. I have no
    trouble thinking of a meme that commits suicide_ because we can
    ' find out' ( associate) how we should behave just before jumping of
    the cliff.
    The question is indeed, how should it be like to be a meme for the meme!?
    What would be in a sense the ' memetic ' for the meme !?
    ( What would be the aching feeling for pain itself).

    Thomas Nagel_ " Subectivity exists upon the level of individuals, but
    also on the level of species, like bats, or people.
    And that is just the point. Like we only can feel how it is like to see,
    in a specific way, red or taste cola_ in the same way a bat feels itself,
    bat !
    Bats do have a species- specific point of view and that differs in a
    radical way from our typical human one.
    IMO, memes too, maybe have such a specific point of view_ call
    it selfish !"



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