Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id JAA24308 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:04:17 GMT Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 00:58:35 -0800 Message-Id: <200202070858.g178wZm05283@mail14.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [220.127.116.11] From: "Joe Dees" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: email@example.com Subject: Re: Words and memes Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
>Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 22:55:08 +1100
> firstname.lastname@example.org Jeremy Bradley <email@example.com> Re: Words and memesReply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org
>At 11:39 PM 5/02/02 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:47:53 +1100
>>> email@example.com Jeremy Bradley <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Words and
>>>>If "meme" is taken to be equivalent to "idea," then it becomes culturally
>>>>universalized and ceases to have meaning. On the other hand, if "meme" is
>>>>equated with "learned behavior," then it becomes biologically universalized
>>>>and also ceases to have meaning. Any term that can be collapsed into
>>>>another term is just an abstraction. It has no existence outside of the
>>>>word we've made up for it.
>>>Good points. What if 'meme' is simply a word signifying a strand of
>>>cultural information which resides in cultural artefacts (even a hammer)
>>>which enables the replication of the culture?
>>I see memes as encodings of meaningful information that are replicated for
>fitness reasons. They may be encoded in neural nets, behavior or
>artifacts, and many are encoded in all three.
>I have a problem with the subjective nature of the 'fitness' concept as I'm
>not sure that what we now think of as 'fit', may not, in another time or
>place, be thought of as fukt.
>Neural nets are not my thing Joe but I am sure that information is encoded
>Think about this short story:
>Once upon a time there was a handsome Prince. He travelled throughout his
>father's kingdom fighting dragons and saving maidens until one day he saved
>a beautiful maid. They immediately fell in love and, on their wedding day,
>his father abdicated and set the happy couple on the throne in his place.
>They ruled long and wisely and all in the land prospered. THE END
>I can see that the stratified 'ideas' of linear time, heredity, beauty,
>hierarchy, travel, purity, chastity, romance, etc. form a strand of
>normalising cultural information which replicates the culture, but I don't
>agree that an isolated 'idea' (say travel) is a 'meme' any more than a
>single segment of a gene (like the one that made me go bald) is a gene.
>What was your favourite story when you were quite young? Has it any
>relevance in your adult life? What family stories of ancestral 'behaviours'
>do you, or will you, tell your children - why? What 'codes' are in the
>stories and why do some survive for thousands of years?
>I think that 'important' cultural values were passed intergenerationaly in
>stories and that we retain them in our storyscape because they inculcated
>those 'values' in us. In order to pass the values on, we pass on the stories.
>The core values of our culture are therefore to be found in the oldest
>stories. For example, if we look at the sequence of 'ideas' in Genesis
>(even if you are agnostic) we can understand much of what we do today.
It is of course circular; that which has had the most reproductive success is retrospectively adjudged as the most fit.
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
Looking for a book? Want a deal? No problem AddALL!
http://www.addall.com compares book price at 41 online stores.
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Feb 07 2002 - 09:15:12 GMT