Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id AAA14904 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Tue, 5 Feb 2002 00:05:30 GMT Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:59:46 -0800 Message-Id: <200202042359.g14NxkW07329@mail10.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [188.8.131.52] From: "Joe Dees" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: email@example.com Subject: Re: Words and memes Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> "Dace" <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> Re: Words and memesDate: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:16:06 -0800
>> >From: John Croft
>> > > Thus Ted wrote
>> > > > >In order for this to occur, the words must involve
>> > > > >some kind of interpretation ("bacon is evil") and
>> > > > >not a mere statement of fact ("bacon is in the
>> > > > >fridge"). If it's merely factual, the repetition
>> > > > >of the statement can be accounted for according to
>> > > > >normal, intentional use of language.
>> > >
>> > > and Keith replied
>> > > > Good way to put it. You can't call everything a
>> > > > meme or it becomes a useless word.
>> > >
>> > > Again I would disagree with you both here. Everything
>> > > that is culturally duplicated and diseminated is a
>> > > meme. (Not just statements with interpretation - for
>> > > instance - a sung melody is a meme, a gesture (eg
>> > > shaking hands in greeting) is a meme, washing potatoes
>> > > in the sea before eating them is a meme. It is the
>> > > fact of duplication that makes it mimetic. If not
>> > > duplicated, but learned individually with every
>> > > generation, or if "instinctual" and passed genetically
>> > > then it is not a meme. "Fridges", "bacon" and putting
>> > > "bacon" into "fridges" are all mimentic, specific to
>> > > one culture, and all "seek" replication.
>> >Culture can be divided into intentional and memetic. While the "atoms
>> >of culture" are always taking on a life of their own-- far beyond the
>> >intentions of their creators-- we are continually regenerating culture
>> >the foundation. Even if a particular tune is known to be "catchy," if I
>> >consciously decide to hum it, it's a function of intentional culture.
>> >when it starts playing on its own-- and continues replaying long after
>> >begun to annoy me-- does it become a function of memetic culture.
>> >I agree that it's important to distinguish between what is memetic and
>> >what is genetic. But it's also important to distinguish between what is
>> >memetic and what is intentional. In order for the term to be meaningful,
>> >"meme" must be delineated on both sides, from biology and from
>> >reflexive consciousness.
>> >The key issue is whether the unit of culture is self-replicated or
>> >intentionally replicated by a conscious agent. Memes are active. Ideas
>> >are passive.
>> I would be curious to see an example of a 'meme' and an example of an
>> 'idea' that will display the distinction you are trying to make.
>> Ray Recchia
>If we think of a tune as a musical idea, then the tune that gets "stuck in
>your head" is a nice example of an idea that turns memetic. The Internet
>began as an idea, hatched by the Defense Department's advanced research
>projects division, and then became a meme as it caught on. No one has to
>reflect anymore on what the Internet is and what its value is. We've long
>since reached the point at which this idea propagates unreflectively. It's
>on our minds whether we want it there or not.
>If "meme" is taken to be equivalent to "idea," then it becomes culturally
>universalized and ceases to have meaning. On the other hand, if "meme" is
>equated with "learned behavior," then it becomes biologically universalized
>and also ceases to have meaning. Any term that can be collapsed into
>another term is just an abstraction. It has no existence outside of the
>word we've made up for it.
I agree with this; this is why memes involve both ideation and action.
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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