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> >From: Joe Dees
> >> >> Representation is not found in the matter and energy per se, but
> >> >in their meaningful configuration.
> >> >>>>
> >> >
> >> >Funny that you dismissed Robin Faichney when you're using
> >> >"representation" to mean exactly what he means by "information."
> >> >
> >> Actually, umm, no. For Robin, information does not have to be
> >either meaningful or representational. Representation is a forteriori
> >meaningful, as representation is itself a meaningful relation to that
> >which the trepresentation re-presents.
> >Robin claims information is contained in material "patterns." You claim
> >representation is contained in material "configurations." You're arguing
> >exactly the same thing, yet imagining you're having this thunderous
> >You're not discoursing so much as butting heads to establish hierarchy.
> No, it is a central and fundamental disagreement; he sees no necessity for
either a meanong-giving self or meaningful information in memetics; I
contend that memes are irreduceably semantic, and that we are irretrieveably
not only emergent conscious self-awarenesses, but that these
self-awarenesses are apodictically meaning-driven.
And both of you accept the notion that "information" or "representation" is
in some way a physical property. That's what we were talking about, before
you derailed there.
> >> >There's no representation in the universe, i.e. spacetime.
> >> >
> >> But you are in the universe, and so is my computer screen, and yours.
> >Not exactly. I am in time, as expressed in my mind.
> You must, then, believe that everyone on this list is of one mind, for
they all read your posts, unless, of course, they delete them unread.
Oh, yeah. All of this is trashed. No one is paying any attention to this.
> Furthermore, you must believe that we are all in the same place
simultaneously (violating a fundamental law of physics), for us to be in the
same 'time' (even ignoring the fact that we read our mail at different times
from different locations, that is, from different spatiotemporal positions,
around this globe).
Once again you assume that to be temporal is to be somehow outside
spatiotemporality. To be in time is to be present (spacetime) as well as
retaining the past and pursuing goals.
> > I am both prior to and posterior to the universe of spacetime.
> Your parents, who inhabited this spatiotemporal universe before you were
born, would be forced to disagree (unless you're now doing the solipsistic
We're getting to the point where your nonanswers, delivered with the same
belligerence regardless of their irrelevance, are getting tiresome. My
parents were prior and posterior to their presence, as I am to mine, thanks.
> > That is, I have memory and (free) will.
> Both entirely consistent with, and in fact predicated upon, our existence
in a spatiotemporal matter/energy universe.
If spaciotemporality is a static, four dimensional universe, complete from
one end (past) to the other (future), then, no, there's no freedom or
novelty in the universe. But if you mean simply that the present is
inextricalbly spatial as well as temporal, then indeed, our freedom is
entirely consistent with spacetime. That is, time is consistent with
spacetime as it actually is rather than our idea of it. The "time" of
spacetime is not the whole of time but only its spatial, externalized
aspect. Time is also intrinsic and irreducible. It's not simply a fourth
dimension of space, tacked on as an afterthought.
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