Re: ality

From: Dace (
Date: Wed Jan 30 2002 - 04:23:12 GMT

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    Subject: Re: ality
    Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:23:12 -0800
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    Joe Dees:

    > >> >> >As long as you've conceded the reduction of real time to
    > >> >> >space-time, there's nothing you can say against determinism.
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> Wrong; spatiotemporality is quite real
    > >> >
    > >> >Of course. Everything that exists in space also exists in time.
    > >> >From the point of view of physical objects, the two are totally
    > >> >intertwined. But time itself doesn't exist in space. It exists
    > >> >intrinsically, irreducibly.
    > >> >
    > >> Nope; spatiotemporality is a single irreduceable manifold.
    > >
    > >Spacetime is real insofar as everything spatial is also temporal. What's
    unreal is the notion that time has no existence apart from space, that time
    is static and given, like space, which renders past and future akin to left
    and right, except that, in our limited abilities (soon to be swept away by
    Science) we can only see what's to the left, while the right remains in a
    haze. But with sufficient technological know-how we will find ourselves
    behind the projector and then in front of the screen, with a button for
    fast-forward and another one for rewind. We'll see how it's all really
    concurrent and therefore determined. There's no possibility, once you
    reduce time to spacetime, that any event could be uncaused. Look around,
    from big bang to big crunch, it's all done, all simultaneous. How could it
    be otherwise if duration is illusory and time a fourth spatial dimension?
    > >
    > [...] we have artificially bifurcated a single perceptual
    spatiotemporality into 'space' and 'time', [...]

    You keep coming back with the same point-- that spacetime is real-- despite
    the fact that I'm clearly not denying its existence. Space is bound up with
    time. Space, after all, is present. What is spatialized is right now. The
    past doesn't have any space. Potentiality takes up no space. Only the
    present has space. Space (and matter and energy) is what marks the present
    off from what is past and what is potential. Since all events in space are
    also in time, we may speak of spacetime. All of our experience occurs in
    spacetime. But time is continual motion. The present is continually
    bleeding into the past, as what was merely potential becomes actual in a new
    present. And on and on and on. So time is more than just spacetime. This
    doesn't mean there's a time without space. Present time is spatialized.
    But its inherent motion, which space entirely lacks, makes time into
    something fundamentally different, and without this difference there would
    be no possibility of novelty and therefore of freedom. This is simply to
    take time at face value, rather than assuming it to be a fourth spatial
    dimension. Einstein was correct about spacetime. His error was to imagine
    that spacetime is synonymous with time. It is not. It is synonymous with

    Once again, asserting the reality of time in no way denies the reality of
    spacetime (any more than asserting the reality of the mind denies the
    reality of the brain).

    > >> >Only when viewed from the outside-- that is, from the point of view
    > >> >of space-- does it appear to be purely relative to space.
    > >> >
    > >> Neither is dependent upon the other; they are interrelationally
    correlative with neither being prior or posterior.
    > >
    > >Time is both prior and posterior to space. What exists, objectively,
    right now, is space, which we now know as spacetime. Time is past and
    potential, memory and novelty. To the extent that time is present, it's
    identical to space (hence spacetime). To the extent that time is motion
    it's identical to itself. This is why space (spacetime) is relative while
    time is absolute. Time is reality while spacetime is derivative, ephemeral,
    fleeting. If reality were spacetime, then there would be no freedom, no
    self, no mind. If life has the same relation to time that branches have to
    their treetrunk, then we too are self-existent and free, and it's this
    self-existence that constitutes the mind. This is why memory and will are
    mental. This is why we know time from within. Time is the one thing we
    observe in everything around us that's also inside of us, at our core. We
    seem to be made of it, and we are. Time is universal self-existence, and
    life is local self-existence. We can talk about all this because we inhabit
    a mental environment, because humanity is mental self-existence. We are
    mental creatures, making use of primitive primate bodies to propagate
    ourselves. And we, in turn, our used by our own mental offspring, culture
    and cult, both of which are made up of myriad cells, i.e. memes.
    > >
    > Your cryptoreligios pseudoassertion that unless people accept your flawed
    schema they must forsake self, mind and freedom is ludicrous, especially
    when compounded by such unsupported (because unsupportable, because wrong)
    statements such as "Time is both prior and posterior to space".

    "Prior" and "posterior" are functions of time. Space has no priority, and
    it has no posteriority. That's why it's space, not time.


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