Re: neccesity of mental memes

From: Steve Drew (
Date: Mon Jan 28 2002 - 20:29:48 GMT

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    Subject: Re: neccesity of mental memes
    Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:29:48 +0000
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    <Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:16:57 -0800
    From: "Grant Callaghan" <>
    Subject: Re: necessity of mental memes

    Maybe my perceptions here are wrong, but I thought time was a
    measurement of
    change, not the change itself, just like length, width and height are
    measurements of what it that is changing, not the thing itself.  How we
    experience time is a perception that has nothing to do with the
    but is a reaction to our experience.  It's not just the brain that
    and reacts to our experience, it's the entire body  -- a body that
    chemical reactions of its own to create the perception of time speeding
    or slowing down.

    But spacetime does nothing.  It is a meme.  A set of measurements
    the motion of one thing with the motion of something else, most often
    rotation of the earth around its axis and subdivisons thereof -- i.e.
    minutes, seconds, nanoseconds, hertz, megahertz, etc.  All of these are
    comparisons of the earth's motion with what we are measuring.  The
    measurement itself only exists as an abstraction in our minds.  Light
    doesn't care how fast it travels compared to how fast the earth rotates.
    The feet and miles we compare it to are comparisons with some English

    So when you say time does this or time does that, you're confusing
    subjective reality, which we create inside our heads, with the objects
    are thinking about.  Galaxies, stars, light waves, etc., have nothing to
    with the earth's rotation or the king's feet.  Or even the rods we
    to define a meter because it was "more precise" and fit more easily into
    base ten counting system.

    This personification of time based on our experience leads to such
    as "going back in time," as if yesterday were a place and tomorrow
    more than just a prediction.  If you could jump to where the earth,
    which is
    traveling around the sun, which is traveling around a galaxy, which is
    traveling with a group of galaxies toward some unknown destination, will
    after one more rotations of the planet, it won't be there.  You would
    yourself standing in airless space.  It would be the same if you jumpped
    backwards to where earth was yesterday.  You wouldn't find it.  Time is
    function of how we perceive the universe, not the universe itself.

    Anyway, there's two cents worth of my perspective on the subject.  I
    it will cause Mr. Hawking to start changing his book.  ;-)>


    Spacetime is a function of the universe. I agree that our measuring systems
    are abitrary, and always will be, but so what. Secondly, as you say time
    appears to vary according to our social circumstances, and again so what,
    why does that have anything to do with the physical universe. When we are
    measuring time in the ordinary sense here on Earth, we do percieve it as a
    funtion of how we see the earth. But comparing spacetime frames is not the
    same as comparing say length with length. Were i travelling at light speed
    and you were here on the Earth, we would both have the perception that a
    metre was a metre etc. When we sit down and compare our watches my watch
    will be slow compared to yours. therefore whatever our perceptions of how we
    think the universe is, something measurable will have occurred.
    With regards time travel and the earth moving and landing in empty space, i
    think this is wrong, as you are separating time and space, and as i
    understand it they are indivisible. One does not exist without the other.


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