Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id JAA22280 (8.6.9/5.3[ref email@example.com] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from firstname.lastname@example.org); Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:38:45 GMT Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:34:25 -0800 Message-Id: <200201240934.g0O9YP206047@mail24.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [18.104.22.168] From: "Joe Dees" <email@example.com> To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: The Barren Desolate Wasteland of Superdeterminism Sender: email@example.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> "Philip Jonkers" <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: The Barren Desolate Wasteland of SuperdeterminismDate: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:31:13 -0900
>> These three terms are inextricably linked; free will, self-consciousness,
>and meaning. In the absence of the ability to choose and to efficiently act
>upon choice, it is impossible to comprehend how evolution could select the
>ability to more profitably choose, and as that is exactly what the
>reflective distance conferred by self-consciousness permits, there could be
>no reason for such a sterile and impotent faculty to evolve. Likewise with
>meaning. Meaning is meadiately (through self-consciousness) dependent upon
>choice. Preferences can only be real if they can result in action that
>chooses between them, and they can only be real if the alternatives they
>choose between mean different things, for conscious self-awarenesses. In
>the absence of choice and the ability to act to achieve one's choice,
>nothing can mean anything more or less than anything else, which pretty much
>kills memetics as a discipline, and just about every other aspect of human
>endeavor. We would be left!
>> with the nonalternative that nothing means anything, not Buddhism, not
>Islam not any religion, not science, not anything. Such a doctrine leads in
>an exigent and necessary lockstep to the death of value, and in fact, to the
>conclusion that value was never born. Further than that, it leads to the
>conclusion that self0consciousness, value and meaning are even less than
>illusions, for there remains nothing to be deluded, and no right or wrong,
>and no reason to value astronomy over astrology, or religion over science,
>for right and wrong cannot exist. But neither can any meaning; any
>semantics. All the communications which humans have bounced off each other
>since time immemorial have been meaningless, and have been forordained, by
>nothing but the happenstance structure of the Big Bang genesis, since the
>cosmos' beginning. All of this is, of course, directly contradicted by the
>existence and nature of personal experience, which conclusively deposits the
>> of superdeterminism into the dustbin of fallacious religious beliefs.
>I guess all of the contemporary sciences have proven that there is no such
>(large-scale) determinism. The one who demonstrated this fact of life most
>convincingly is quantum mechanics, a theory which is probabilistic right
>from its postulates. Nature seems to behave according to statistical laws as
>of confirming verification of QM laws have shown. Everything consists of
>particles which all obey quantum equations of motion, so everything
>an intrinsic indeterministic seed.
Yep; Brownian motion, and many other scientifically verifiable phenomena, spit in the face of the cryptoreligious faith/belief in superdeterminism.
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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