Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id IAA22088 (8.6.9/5.3[ref email@example.com] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from firstname.lastname@example.org); Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:11:44 GMT Message-ID: <01cc01c1a4b6$22e1a1a0$6621aace@oemcomputer> From: "Philip Jonkers" <email@example.com> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <AA-1A04C7B4EE944C7668FBC1D84F18EF95-ZZ@maillink1.prodigy.net> <00af01c1a479$ac039ac0$aa86b2d1@teddace> Subject: Re: Abstractism Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:04:30 -0900 Organization: Prodigy Internet Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: email@example.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org
> > >I do not question at all the possibility that memes, ideas,
> > >whatever, can influence people. I'm influenced by viewing a stand of
> > >old growth trees very substantially (I'm a forester), and I would be
> > >foolish to doubt that ideas can influence people. What I doubt is that
> > >the meme, or old growth stand, or whatevery, wants to influence me.
> > I agree, the meme clearly doesn't want anything.
> > It's an abstract entity
> In other words, it doesn't exist.
> > with no will.
> Of course. How could it have will if it doesn't exist in the first place?
> To be real a thing must exist whether or not we believe in it. An
> abstraction, by definition, is a product of consciousness. It cannot
> unless we imagine it-- precisely the opposite of the ontological
> If memes are abstractions, then we're just playing games here, fiddling
> words and imagining we've discovered something.
Okay, bad sequence of words I admit. I should have stated:
The meme is an entity that would best be described abstractly. If you
I do, that memes define culture there would be no culture if I were to
they exist only in an abstract way. This would be in contradiction with
reality as there
obviously is a thing like culture. Thanks Ted for pointing me out to this
error of logic.
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