Re: Abstractism

From: Philip Jonkers (
Date: Thu Jan 24 2002 - 09:04:30 GMT

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    From: "Philip Jonkers" <>
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    Subject: Re: Abstractism
    Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:04:30 -0900
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    > Philip:
    > > >I do not question at all the possibility that memes, ideas,
    > > >whatever, can influence people. I'm influenced by viewing a stand of
    > > >old growth trees very substantially (I'm a forester), and I would be
    > > >foolish to doubt that ideas can influence people. What I doubt is that
    > > >the meme, or old growth stand, or whatevery, wants to influence me.
    > >
    > > I agree, the meme clearly doesn't want anything.
    > > It's an abstract entity
    > In other words, it doesn't exist.
    > > with no will.
    > Of course. How could it have will if it doesn't exist in the first place?
    > To be real a thing must exist whether or not we believe in it. An
    > abstraction, by definition, is a product of consciousness. It cannot
    > unless we imagine it-- precisely the opposite of the ontological
    > If memes are abstractions, then we're just playing games here, fiddling
    > words and imagining we've discovered something.

    Okay, bad sequence of words I admit. I should have stated:
    The meme is an entity that would best be described abstractly. If you
    assume, like
    I do, that memes define culture there would be no culture if I were to
    maintain that
    they exist only in an abstract way. This would be in contradiction with
    reality as there
    obviously is a thing like culture. Thanks Ted for pointing me out to this
    error of logic.


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