Re: Sensory and sensibility

From: Ray Recchia (
Date: Mon Jan 21 2002 - 03:07:56 GMT

  • Next message: Dace: "Re: Scientology"

    Received: by id DAA11835 (8.6.9/5.3[ref] for from; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 03:14:43 GMT
    Message-Id: <>
    X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2
    Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:07:56 -0500
    From: Ray Recchia <>
    Subject: Re: Sensory and sensibility
    In-Reply-To: <AA-68B51EEBBC57F2F0C09712650AE59FD6-ZZ@maillink1.prodigy.n et>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
    Precedence: bulk


    At 08:06 PM 1/20/2002 -0500, you wrote:
    > >Doesn't the fact that animals can dream mean that
    >they have a self? I have
    > >less objections to your term 'self-awareness' even
    >though I'm not fond of
    > >it either. In any case Irene Maxine Pepperberg's
    >work with parrots
    > >demonstrates that these animals are capable of using
    >words if properly trained.
    >Indeed, IIRC it has been reported that cats have a REM
    >sleep-phase. But to infer from this that cats have
    >an actual abstract representation of other cats,
    >and of themselves... hmmmm, it may be on a very, very
    >crude level. I think it would be more likely that
    >REM sleeps with an abstract meaning occurs with
    >better equiped animals, like primates for instance.

    Oh, I suspect that the level of abstraction most animals are capable of is
    very limited. I object to those who claim that animals are incapable of
    abstraction altogether. The evidence indicates otherwise. (See most recent
    previous post - this topic - for more on parrots)

    I also object to those who claim that animals don't have a 'self'. When my
    dog is sleeping and she starts whimpering and twitching her legs I can tell
    that she's having a nightmare. If there were no self how could she have a
    nightmare? And doesn't that REM phase in animals indicate my dog is
    dreaming? Doesn't that Rapid Eye Movement show that she is visually
    tracking something inside her head in the same way it works with humans?

    Ray Recchia

    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Mon Jan 21 2002 - 03:44:36 GMT