Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA08146 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Sun, 20 Jan 2002 04:25:50 GMT Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 20:21:27 -0800 Message-Id: <200201200421.g0K4LRG12148@mail9.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [126.96.36.199] From: "Joe Dees" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: email@example.com Subject: Re: Sensory and sensibility Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> "Grant Callaghan" <firstname.lastname@example.org> email@example.com Re: Sensory and sensibilityDate: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 08:01:35 -0800
>>At 11:06 PM 1/18/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>> >Salice wrote
>>> >Is the 'self' required for memetic processes?
>>And you replied
>>>It is necessary for communication by means of a commonly understood,
>>>created and arbitrary language (as opposed to instinctual calls).
>>Doesn't the fact that animals can dream mean that they have a self? I have
>>less objections to your term 'self-awareness' even though I'm not fond of
>>it either. In any case Irene Maxine Pepperberg's work with parrots
>>demonstrates that these animals are capable of using words if properly
>Making sounds that sound like words and using words are not the same thing.
>When I beat my chest I am not communicating with gorillas. Birds can be
>taught to repeat certain sounds to please their trainers, but I seriously
>doubt they are consciously communicating meaning with their sounds. They
>have just learned that making some sounds will cause people to reward them
>with food or attention. I don't believe they are really "saying" anything.
Yep; it's just another example of the 'Clever Hans" phenomenon.
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>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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