RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception

From: Lawrence DeBivort (
Date: Sat Jan 19 2002 - 14:52:58 GMT

  • Next message: Lawrence DeBivort: "RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception"

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    Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
    Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 09:52:58 -0500
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    Joe, thanks for the citations you sent in another message today, and will
    comment later on what I find there.

    Meanwhile: Israelis and anti-Israeli Arabs share an unfortunate saying:

    "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

    The reason that this is unfortunate is that it 1) obscures the reality that
    in a conflict may be many parties each with different objectives and
    methods, 2) leads to promiscuous alliances and endorsements, the darker side
    of an "ally's history and belief system then rubbing off on all who become

    Further, generalization then steps in and blinds protagonists to necessary
    distinctions: for many Israelis, ALL Arabs are out to get them, or ALL
    Muslims; for many Palestinians, ALL Israelis are out to get them, or ALL
    Jews, and especially American Jews, with whom they associate US policies in
    the Middle East. These are all toxic memes, in that they lead to
    self-defeating behaviors on all parts. They lead to some Israelis seeking
    solace with American Christian and Jewish religious fundamentalists, or with
    South Africa's Apartheid regimes. They lead some anti-Israeli Muslims to
    seek solace with anti-Jewish/semites. And in receiving that solace, both are
    encouraged to ignore the real work of reconciliation that must take place if
    the killing is to stop.

    I would guess that the percentage of anti-Israeli Arabs who are in contact
    with American skinheads is extremely small, in the same way that not only
    are American skinheads a very small portion of the US population, but beyond
    that the proportion of American skinheads in anything like a dialog with
    Arab/Muslim terrorists is extremely small. Your observations, IMO, imply an
    great exaggeration of this phenomenon, distasteful as it is.


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: []On Behalf
    > Of Joe Dees
    > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 1:56 AM
    > To:
    > Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
    > > "Lawrence DeBivort" <>
    > <> RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory
    > PerceptionDate: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:51:35 -0500
    > >Reply-To:
    > >
    > >Much as I would like to agree with you, Douglas, the Bush
    > administration was
    > >not suggesting in their new assessment of what really threatens
    > the US that
    > >the threat of low-grade terrorism came from internal sources.
    > Their recent
    > >concession that truck/boat-borne explosives are more of a threat than
    > >missiles referred still to external sources of terrorist threats.
    > >
    > >I don't follow the shenanigans of the US domestic
    > >fundamentalists/survivalists etc much, and am not aware of how they are
    > >evolving. Can you summarize things here?
    > >
    > Actually, Islamic terrorists and our homegrown neo-nazi types
    > have been talking to each other on the Internet. They share a
    > hatred for democracy and Jews, and a fondness for Adolph Hitler
    > and his policies.
    > >
    > >I think we can build a generic model of terrorism and its accompanying
    > >dynamics, and that we would find domestic and foreign terrorists to be
    > >pretty similar. We do have also to remember that not all terrorism comes
    > >from religious fundamentalist sources, e.g. Bader-Meinhoff (sp?)
    > would have
    > >to be seen as a 'modernist' terrorist group.
    > >
    > >If we could build such a model, we could have an interesting
    > memetic overlay
    > >for it.....
    > >
    > >Lawrence
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >> -----Original Message-----
    > >> From: []On Behalf
    > >> Of Douglas Brooker
    > >> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 5:21 AM
    > >> To:
    > >> Subject: RE: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> > >Hands up who thinks Richard's views here have any credence
    > >> whatsoever?
    > >> > >Notice the way he uses the term 'we' as though he was personally
    > >> engaged in
    > >> > >the destruction of Afghanistan.
    > >>
    > >> well, this is how Americans talk. Maybe it could be called the Johnny
    > >> Carson syndrome (cf: The King of Comedy)
    > >>
    > >> > >> <<Also, in the category of the Bush administration calming down
    > >> and coming
    > >> > >> to
    > >> > >> its senses, it has now conceded that missile attacks from 'rogue
    > >> states'
    > >> > >> are
    > >> > >> not the greatest military danger to the US, but that low-grade
    > >> terrorist
    > >> > >> attacks (e.g. trucks a la Oklahoma city) are.
    > >>
    > >> I think this is very intelligent. It recognises the biggest terrorist
    > >> threat to the US is from within, from anonymous disaffected citizens
    > >> who will strike at random.
    > >>

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