Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id HAA20677 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Tue, 15 Jan 2002 07:39:41 GMT Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:35:13 -0800 Message-Id: <200201150735.g0F7ZDK25993@mail16.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [126.96.36.199] From: "Joe Dees" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: email@example.com Subject: Re: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
>Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:51:07 -0500
> Re: Knowledge, Memes and Sensory Perception "Wade T. Smith" <firstname.lastname@example.org> email@example.comReply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org
>On Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 12:30 , Joe Dees wrote:
>> I hold the "the scientific method is a valid investigatory tool for
>> understanding our world" meme. Even when I am completely still, it
>> remains in my mind, and may be decoded into any number of different
>> behaviors, depending upon the object of study, which share this common
>> principle. The behaviors (plural) are examples of how their common
>> motivating meme may be expressed, and it may be expressed in a plethora
>> of related, but nevertheless differing ways.
>You cannot show me any portion of this motivation without behaving in
>some manner to show me. There is no 'may'.
>Your behavior is the only meme. And I might, or might not, arrive at
>_any_ sort of memetic understanding about it, unless I attempt my own
>Whatever expression you decide to use, what you _think_ you are doing
>does, yes, determine, to a degree, but not totally, what your behavior
>is. (What you meant to express is not always what you end up expressing,
>unless your skill level is very high.)
>I personally like the scientific method- my understanding of it is
>pleasant to me- and I might just understand, and attempt to replicate,
>almost all of your behavior, maybe even all of it.
>But, I might be a person who hates the scientific method, and I will
>then reject any attempt at replicating your behavior, and, if I am the
>only person you show your behavior to, your meme dissipates.
>There is no evidence of your motivation, and no expression of it,
>without a behavior on your part. If you are lucky and skillful, an
>artefact is expressed, and some viable culture is available to present
>it within, where it enjoys a sustaining existence. (Not a cargo culture,
>for instance, where there is no reference for understanding what you are
>expressing, and therefore no possibility of replicating behavior, or
>Whether you think you hold something in your mind that motivates you or
>not is irrelevant to the memetic progress your idea will make. Indeed,
>it is quite possible that I will attempt a behavior that is entirely at
>odds with your motivation. Your behavior is all that is memetic. I will
>only see what I will see- from my own vantage.
>Culturally, I might be in accord with your behavior, and accept it,
>grasping a large content of your expression.
>But I might not, and, indeed, just be annoyed at your behavior, and chop
>off your head.
This digression does not address in any manner whatsoever the essential point I raised, which is the distinction between a single motivating idea and a multiplicity of distinctive behaviors. If behavior was primary, no two differing behaviors could be said to relate to a single cognitive principle, but unquestionably, such relation is indeed the case, where each of the behaviors is a token instantiation of a unifying cognitive type. Pleading metamemes, as if they are not themselves either memes or cognitive in nature, or are somehow exempt from the exigencies under which non-meta-memes must subsist, does not answer the objection, either.
In fact, there is no answer to the objection, and there was none when cognitive science supervened over behaviorism, as well.
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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