Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA03955 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Wed, 9 Jan 2002 04:00:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [18.104.22.168] From: "Grant Callaghan" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: email@example.com Subject: Re: playing at suicide Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 19:56:08 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <LAW2-F32S79AX7Ur5qW0001b7be@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jan 2002 03:56:08.0748 (UTC) FILETIME=[91EDDEC0:01C198C1] Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com
For a loner, you seem to communicate with a lot of people. Can't we be
considered part of your tribe now? But if you look at the statistics, most
people grow up embracing the religions of their parents, whether they were
indoctrinated or not. I spent several years of my childhood going from
church to church to see what they had to offer. My grandmother, who raised
me, was Baptist but did not practice the religion. My mother eventually
took me in and sent me to a parochial school and where I was exposed to the
Catholic philosophy. In the end, I created my own philosophy and now don't
embrace any other. But most of the kids I grew up with were not really
indoctrinated. They just went along with what their parents were doing
because that's what they felt comfortable with. The tribal part came with
the peers they decided to hang around with.
In school I picked peers who dared to rebel. I can't remember never hanging
around with anyone. I joined the Marine Corps at an early age and the Air
Force after that. But unless you live on a desert island, you belong to
some group and have a circle of friends. I'll bet the friends you choose
have similar views on religion. This group certainly has a positive
attitude (as a group) about the subject of memetics. If you choose to talk
with agnostics, that's as much a religious choice as going to church. But
I'm not talking about individuals here. I'm talking about how members of
You've no doubt heard that a child who is isolated and does not pick up any
language in the first few years of his/her life never learns a language.
Any language. But no matter what society you are born into, that is the
language you learn first. People exposed to multiple languages at an early
age usually learn all the languages they were exposed to. Few of them have
to be indoctrinated into it. They learn those languages because they want
to communicate with the people who speak them.
My own daughter came to the United States from Taiwan not speaking a word of
English. She only spoke Taiwanese. By the end of one year in kindergarden
her Engish was as good as anyone else's in her class. In spite of attending
a Christian school when we returned to Taiwan, her religious views are
closer to my own than those she was indoctrinated in. I never tried to
teach her any religion. While at school, however, she was a regular little
Why, I wonder, to protestants in Ireland band together and try to kill or
intimidate Catholics? And why do Catholics do the same for protestants? We
have athiests in America who are constantly filing court suits to keep
prayer out of school. They really believe in separation of church and
state. My theory is that humans have learned to treat ideas as property and
will defend them the same way they defend their home and family. It's a
genetic trait we share with other animals to defend our territory.
A great many college professors think they "know the truth" about the
subject they teach and will make life difficult for the student who
challenges their truth. They do this in spite of the fact that what we
believe about any subject in science or history is in a constant state of
revision as new data comes in. The professors who think alike attend
meetings together and meet each other at international conferences to talk
shop. People whose ideas don't agree with theirs are not invited or are
attacked in magazine articles. Daniel Dennett and Roger Penrose might be
thught to belong to different tribes from the way they react to each other's
ideas. They use words instead of sabres, but defend their intellectual
territories with vigor and panache.
So, Kenneth, though you may think you stand like Cyrano de Bergerac "not
high, it may be, but alone," the fact that we're having this conversation
argues against it.
My own brother joined the Air Force in California. He'd never been east of
Arizona before. They sent him to Texas for training and service. When he
returned four years later, he talked like a Texan. I don't think he was
indoctrinated into it. The people he worked with were from all over the
U.S. He just saw a set of memes he liked and picked them up. He, too,
thought of himself as a loner, but he didn't get those memes from drinking
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Grant Callaghan <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> > The child finds the adoption of the cultural norms of his society
> > by allowing him to fit in and become a part of it. There is a genetic
> > to belong to a tribe and religion or a belief system is one of the
> > that defines the tribes to which we belong. Not fitting in causes fear
> > anxiety. Not having a tribe can kill you.
>Can 't agree ! The child did not adopt anything, he is, like Wade said
>trained, indoctrinated with "belief -systems " about how to live his life
>and to what kind of God he should pray to !
>In cases like this, I take my own personal life as example to contradict
>your assumption. There is, and I do know that for sure no genetic need
>inside me to belong to a group, I do not belong to a tribe or to whatso-
>ever. I feel no fear nor anxiety, I am a ' loner ', absolutely !
>And yet, there was no need, nor a desire to kill myself... others, is a
>whole new ballgame !!
>If of course, belonging to a group includes being part of the working-
>class, than I belong to a group, than I am a piece of a greater whole,
>but than again it is not with my content !
From a peer with a loose bladder, ;-)>
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