RE: conditional support for war on Iraq

From: Lawrence H. de Bivort (
Date: Sun Dec 23 2001 - 00:45:50 GMT

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    From: "Lawrence H. de Bivort" <>
    Subject: RE: conditional support for war on Iraq
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    Uh, that was sarcasm, Jeremy. Indeed, I have given considerable thought to
    what it must be like to be such a victim, and I imagine I would do just
    what some of them try to do -- only I hope I would be able to do it more

    I do like the term 'meme-team.' Yours?


    On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Jeremy Bradley wrote:

    >As me old Grandmother used to say: "you can't be good for nothing if you
    >are good for a bad example". This communication is a bad example of myopic
    >meem-team loyalty.
    >What makes you believe in the 'might-is-right' meme? Do you ever think
    >about what it is like as a victim of US agression? What would you do in
    >their situation?
    >At 10:57 PM 14/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
    >>>From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <>
    >>>To: <>
    >>>Subject: RE: conditional support for war on Iraq
    >>>Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:52:04 -0500
    >>>And after Iraq, who do you not like next?
    >>After we help the Iraqi people establish a more friendly gov't you mean?
    >>It's Hussein and his regime which are the problem, not the Iraqi people.
    >>I have no animosity towards Pakistan, even if the ISI had any Taliban
    >>connection or regardless of whether their madrassas were recruiting grounds.
    >>I hope they can maintain peace with India, though the situation over Kashmir
    >>is volatile. I'd like to see a democratic leadership there. Didn't Musharif
    >>(sp?) oust Nawaz Sharif and impose a miltary style rule over that country.
    >>Maybe Bhutto can make another run at it. I dunno.
    >>>Rwanda? Cuba?
    >>Contrary to the sentiments of the exiles in South Florida, I'd like to see
    >>us normalize relations with Cuba and foster a more beneficial situation to
    >>be in place when Castro finally kicks the bucket (around 2075 or so).
    >>Attack an ally? What have they done to us besides that ugly USS Liberty
    >>situation. I'd like to see them and Palestine get along better, but things
    >>don't look so good for that happening.
    >>>Tajikistan? China?
    >>China is a country to be watched closely. The situation with that plane a
    >>while back showed that even at the brink of conflict we were able to reason
    >>with them and Bush came out looking not too shabby. We should treat China as
    >>a nation which must earn our trust. I've got reservations about them. I'd
    >>certainly not want to come to blows with them, because the repercussions
    >>would be potentially catastrophic. Maybe over time the relationship will
    >>grow more amicable, but I'm wondering how the human rights situation is
    >>going over there.
    >>>Burma? In what order do you suggest the US issue
    >>>ultimatums and attack them? Ooops, I forgot a few: Haiti (double-ooops, I
    >>>forgot, we already did them. I'm sure Haiti is in great shape as a result.
    >>I'm not a big fan of humanitarian campaigns, though at least Haiti was
    >>important because of its closeness to our shores.
    >>>Does anyone know?), Uganda, Mali -- definitely Mali -- and then of course
    >>>the French are not quite as respectful as I'd like them to be... oh, and
    >>>Yemen and Ireland.
    >>>And the Basques, they sure have it coming, as well.
    >>>Maybe Germany, while we are at it, just a preemptive thing, of course...and
    >>>Berkeley. Hmmm, this has all kinds of possibilities. Maybe the US could
    >>>up a lottery, to determine which country gets it next.
    >>If we wind up tangling with Iraq again, hopefully that will be it for major
    >>military campaigns. Other terrorist harboring states might eventually become
    >>a consideration, though maybe minor special operations missions would
    >>suffice. As long as Hussein is in power, it seems we will need a continued
    >>presence in Saudi. Ousting him could allow us to eventually remove our
    >>troops, so it doesn't become another long-term South Korea type occupation.
    >>Did you notice that I said we should try giving Iran a second chance,
    >>opening relations with them, long severed after they took some of our people
    >>Oh, and I don't know if one could say we've targeted Afghanistan *per se*
    >>since we are working in cahoots with mujahideen against the Taliban and Al
    >>Quaeda. I'd like to see Afghanistan rise like a phoenix from the ashes of
    >>all the fighting they've seen over the years with Soviet occupation and the
    >>recent struggle over there. Maybe I'm too optimistic though.
    >>> > -----Original Message-----
    >>> > From: []On Behalf
    >>> > Of Scott Chase
    >>> > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:18 PM
    >>> > To:
    >>> > Subject: conditional support for war on Iraq
    >>> >
    >>> >
    >>> >
    >>> >
    >>> >
    >>> > If Bush et al decide, upon reasonable closure in the Afghanistan
    >>> > where the Al Quaeda are eliminated and an interim government put
    >>> > forth with
    >>> > the objective of bringing the ethnic factions together under one
    >>> > umbrella,
    >>> > and with clear objectives in mind for a campaign in Iraq, I would not be
    >>> > opposed.
    >>> >
    >>> > This campaign need not be immediate nor a full scale war, though I'm not
    >>> > eliminating this possibility. Forces should be amassed and ultimatums
    >>> > issued. There should be full inspections allowed throughout Iraq for
    >>> > whatever nefarious weapons programs Hussein might be backing.
    >>> > Failing this,
    >>> > the time for action will be obvious and hopefully our allies
    >>> > support us. The
    >>> > thorn in our side which has been festering all this time should
    >>> > be removed
    >>> > before it becomes too infectious to deal with in the future. Once
    >>> > closure is
    >>> > achieved conditions allowing the facilitation of a more friendly
    >>> > government
    >>> > in Iraq ready to be embraced by the community of the world should
    >>> > be put in
    >>> > place. Old wounds should be healed and the Iraqi people helped to
    >>> > get back
    >>> > on their feet.
    >>> >
    >>> > Upon closure in Iraq, the U.S. should plan on finally ending our
    >>> > presence in Saudi Arabia, ironically one of the issues that got bin
    >>> > all hot and bothered. Hopefully we can open relations with Iran,
    >>> > which has
    >>> > appeared to be a little less hostile, and give them a second
    >>> > chance, if our
    >>> > campaign in neighboring Iraq doesn't alienate them.
    >>> >
    >>> > If we have clear objectives set forth, failing stronger
    >>> > diplomatic pressures
    >>> > working beforehand, and a definite exit plan upon closure, I think I can
    >>> > support military action in Iraq.
    >>> >
    >>> > It's time to nip the problems in the bud before they become even
    >>> > worse and
    >>> > harder to manage later on in the ballgame. While we have
    >>> > momentum, we might
    >>> > as well get it over with.
    >>> >
    >>> > _________________________________________________________________
    >>> > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
    >>> >
    >>> >
    >>> >
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