Re: Definition please

From: Joe Dees (
Date: Wed Dec 12 2001 - 03:05:01 GMT

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    > "Kenneth Van Oost" <> <> Re: Definition pleaseDate: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:27:34 +0100
    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: Ray Recchia <>
    >> Personally, the thing that I have always had trouble with is how a
    >> sophisticated organ like the brain has so much trouble adding two three
    >> digit numbers together. I wonder more at how consciousness can be so
    >> simple and slow when the brain appears to capable of so much more.
    >> Joe Dees argues that in fact consciousness does arise because of increased
    >> complexity. He has offered a hypothesis that humans are distinct from
    >> other animals because our brains have reached a certain level of
    >> which results in consciousness.
    While a certain degree of complexity is necessary for consciousness simpliciter, my contention is more precisely represented by the assertion that our level of consciousness, that is, self-consciousness, is a result of our level of cortical complexity breaching the recursiveness threshhold.
    >Hi Ray,
    >Some level of contradiction here !
    >If you have trouble with how it is possible that the brain got problems
    >something simple as two or three digits, and Joe in fact says that
    >consciousness arose because of increased complexitiy, how can we hold on to
    >a hypothesis that shows that when the information threshold is low, memes
    >propagate better !?
    Simpler is easier to deal with, even for complex systems. No contradiction there.
    >If we take the " A memetic theory of Modernism" article at hand, as a guide,
    >it says that low information contents are not, in their complexity, that
    >ganised at all!
    Of course not. Organization and complexity are not coupled; both simple and complex systems can either be more or less organized.
    >Complexity is than been seen on another level_ it is not that all buildings
    >look alike, have plain glass surfaces, express no creativity whatsoever and
    >not adapt to any human need_ that there is no complexity !
    >There is, but nomore as such.
    >IMO, you have knocked here at a certain boundery.
    >A conservative theme has always been that behind any thing, there has to
    >be something else_ everything must have its meaning even how small it gets!
    >A simple thing like adding two or three digits must hide something else far
    >more complicated, it has to be !
    >My point is, that it is maybe possible that the brain got troubles just
    >of the low information contents of such numbers.
    >Maybe it needs a low information threshold to get the info across, to get
    >info tranferred from one place to another, but needs more for its properly
    There is a book called THE NUMBER SENSE that maintains that we are not especially mathematically gifted as a result of our complexity-spawned self-consciousness, beyond being able to handle judgements as to whether which of two small quantities is greater. let us remember that computers were once termed number-crunchers, and it was in the mathematical domain that humans were first cybernetically surpassed.
    >This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    >For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)

    Looking for a book? Want a deal? No problem AddALL! compares book price at 41 online stores.

    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)

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