Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id PAA13290 (8.6.9/5.3[ref email@example.com] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from firstname.lastname@example.org); Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:23:14 GMT Message-ID: <000b01c1818e$b6650f20$549ebed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <email@example.com> References: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: Darwinian Processes and Memes in Architecture Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:23:29 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: email@example.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org
Hi Salice, Ray,
> >Furtheron, i feel kind of annoyed by people using memetics theory for
> >their personal tastes and giving pseudo-evidence to prove that their
> >taste is universal true for everyone. Where's the science in there?
> I agree.
> I think it is a real problem that we need to look at. As another example
> really liked the historical background given in Agner Fog's book 'Cultural
> Selection' (much of which can be found online at www.agner.org/cultset/)
> but I think his cultural r/K theory is way too oversimplified and full of
> subjective classifications. I think there should be a broader discussion
> of this. If this field is ever to be taken seriously we need to be
> not to overreach, and I am not certain what we can do to keep the reins
<< I agree with both of you, expressing your feelings that memetics is
misused to get personal gain, some points do need clarification, but I
don 't see to which extend the two writers of this piece would gain so
much being one a member of a division of mathematics and the other is deep
in psychology I suppose.
But that is all beside the point.
The point is that both look at architectue from a memetic point of view,
and IMO that is a good start. Where you think they are all for modernism,
it seems to me that just the opposite is true. And moreover, in the para-
graph beginning with ' different styles competed with each other....( just
before part 7) they express IMO a very important issue indeed.
The fact that in architecture the lowest of the information treshold is the
one that gets propagated is meaningful for memetics.
What makes memes propagate in the first place !?
Undo any meme of its rich information content and you get the ' meme-
core ', in a broader sense the memetype.
In other words, quantity becomes quality, but this sounds paradoxal, but
it is not, the more you get rid of additional info the better a meme will
propagate itself, simplicity is the norm.
Also, their new (8) factor seems to have a workable angle, encapsulation
got indeed a nasty ring to it, but remerber the discussion about G- memes,
artefacts ( Question to Wade) and the definition of imitation.
There too you found encapsulation. The beauty of a statue is within that
piece of art, we drag it out, it makes itself more attractive to us manipu-
lating our emotions in order to propagate. The beauty is than protected
by the whole of the gesture, the material of which it is made, form, pose,
inside a complex of other memes the beauty is insulated from other more
hostile memes. On an individual bias, most likely.
You apply to them as not being original, to misuse memetics, but in doing
that you are doing exactly the same thing of which you wanna fight.
You start from out your ' scientific ' approach, which is due to certain
rules and obligations, and I understand that, but ordering people to do
just that, is exactly the same what you reproach them, you are willing
to protect your ' political ' bias where upon memetics is placed.
But, IMO, and that counts still for everything, you need the dichotomy
in any debate.
My opinion is, try to see this the other way round, try to see this as were
the title, "A memetic theory to express their discomfort with Modernism",
and you get a whole other ballgame.
They made a few, but important mistakes, but if this can contribute to a
better understanding of to ' how ' memetics/ memes work, I am all for
for such kind of tokens.
That is to say, that is why this list is for, to discuss the ramifications
human culture as a whole.
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Mon Dec 10 2001 - 15:29:36 GMT