Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id HAA01687 (8.6.9/5.3[ref email@example.com] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from firstname.lastname@example.org); Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:37:36 GMT Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 23:32:38 -0800 Message-Id: <200112040732.fB47WcE24167@mail5.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [18.104.22.168] From: "Joe Dees" <email@example.com> To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: circular logic Sender: email@example.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> <email@example.com> Re: circular logicDate: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:29:20 +0100
>>The thing is, according to Devillers and Chaline, that not only the neck,
>>also the frontlegs of the animals were getting longer. The result of both
>>processes, forced upon them by the environment, is that the giraffe,
>>standing up on its backlegs can now reach a hight of six meters ( 20 feet).
>>All is due to habits. And the habit, more likely the need, of reaching for
>>highest leaves resulted in changes.
>Nope. Shorter giraffes starved to death, taller ones (however 'taller' was
>manifested, by neck or legs or both) survived to reproduce, giving us a new
>spectrum of heights in succeeding generations; the shorter ones of these
>generations starved to death, too, and the median giraffe height rose as a
>consequence of this blind purposeless natural environmental selection of
>certain mutations over others, or of one end of that species'
>body-configuration spectrum over the other, in continuous iteration.
>Can 't agree !
>There were way back that time no shorter giraffes !
>The giraffes were the adaption ! There were only bigger animals which could
>reach the top leaves of the trees easily. Environmental changes forced some
>of them to reach for still more higher leaves, maybe the leaves of a tree
>they did not feed on usualy.
>According to Dawkins, the shorter necks did not die out. The giraffe as we
>know it today had an ancestor more likely something like the okapi.
>This could be a classic example of cultural transmission via imitation.
>The little ones of those animals who reached for the highest leaves did so
>too. The other ones stayed behind and evolved into the okapi of today.
>Cultural transmission can last for a very long time, maybe this one has been
>picked up by the natural selection criteria.
>IMO, 2 possibilities,
>1_ the ancester of the okapi and the giraffe was a bigger animal overall,
>with a shorter neck. In that case they could reach for the leaves on top,
>for still higher leaves, they could stand on their backlegs.
>Out of that one ancestor two species evolved, okapi and giraffe.
>2_ the ancestor of the okapi and the giraffe was not that bigger than the
>okapi we know today. In that case the giraffe evolved (A) along lines
>of cultural transmission, variation and selection. Only one new species
>the giraffe. The mutual ancestor became the okapi. ( slow evolution)
>(B) According to Dawkins, the change occured in one big mutation leap,
>although he does not believe this himself. ( an evolution jump)
>The difference between the neck of the giraffe and the one of the okapi
>is very slim. The difference is that by the giraffe the vertebrae and
>else were pushed out of eachother. This is streching an old existing
>not the introduction of a new.
>Not one starved to death, taller animals reached for the higher leaves,
>the smaller animals were happy to get the ones halfway. Everybody
>reproduced, but where there was once one species, two developed.
>The first got six of one, the second got half of the dozen.
Your point is well taken, as eohippus could not be considered either a horse or a burro, but was an ancestor of both. My question now is whether it is your interpretation or Ted Dace's or some combination of both that is closest to being correct.
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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