Re: circular logic

From: Joe Dees (
Date: Tue Dec 04 2001 - 07:32:38 GMT

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    Subject: Re: circular logic
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    > "Kenneth Van Oost" <> <> Re: circular logicDate: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:29:20 +0100
    >>The thing is, according to Devillers and Chaline, that not only the neck,
    >>also the frontlegs of the animals were getting longer. The result of both
    >>processes, forced upon them by the environment, is that the giraffe,
    >>standing up on its backlegs can now reach a hight of six meters ( 20 feet).
    >>All is due to habits. And the habit, more likely the need, of reaching for
    >>highest leaves resulted in changes.
    >Nope. Shorter giraffes starved to death, taller ones (however 'taller' was
    >manifested, by neck or legs or both) survived to reproduce, giving us a new
    >spectrum of heights in succeeding generations; the shorter ones of these
    >generations starved to death, too, and the median giraffe height rose as a
    >consequence of this blind purposeless natural environmental selection of
    >certain mutations over others, or of one end of that species'
    >body-configuration spectrum over the other, in continuous iteration.
    >Hi Joe,
    >Can 't agree !
    >There were way back that time no shorter giraffes !
    >The giraffes were the adaption ! There were only bigger animals which could
    >reach the top leaves of the trees easily. Environmental changes forced some
    >of them to reach for still more higher leaves, maybe the leaves of a tree
    >they did not feed on usualy.
    >According to Dawkins, the shorter necks did not die out. The giraffe as we
    >know it today had an ancestor more likely something like the okapi.
    >This could be a classic example of cultural transmission via imitation.
    >The little ones of those animals who reached for the highest leaves did so
    >too. The other ones stayed behind and evolved into the okapi of today.
    >Cultural transmission can last for a very long time, maybe this one has been
    >picked up by the natural selection criteria.
    >IMO, 2 possibilities,
    >1_ the ancester of the okapi and the giraffe was a bigger animal overall,
    >with a shorter neck. In that case they could reach for the leaves on top,
    >for still higher leaves, they could stand on their backlegs.
    >Out of that one ancestor two species evolved, okapi and giraffe.
    >2_ the ancestor of the okapi and the giraffe was not that bigger than the
    >okapi we know today. In that case the giraffe evolved (A) along lines
    >of cultural transmission, variation and selection. Only one new species
    >the giraffe. The mutual ancestor became the okapi. ( slow evolution)
    >(B) According to Dawkins, the change occured in one big mutation leap,
    >although he does not believe this himself. ( an evolution jump)
    >The difference between the neck of the giraffe and the one of the okapi
    >is very slim. The difference is that by the giraffe the vertebrae and
    >else were pushed out of eachother. This is streching an old existing
    >not the introduction of a new.
    >Not one starved to death, taller animals reached for the higher leaves,
    >the smaller animals were happy to get the ones halfway. Everybody
    >reproduced, but where there was once one species, two developed.
    >The first got six of one, the second got half of the dozen.
    Your point is well taken, as eohippus could not be considered either a horse or a burro, but was an ancestor of both. My question now is whether it is your interpretation or Ted Dace's or some combination of both that is closest to being correct.
    >This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    >For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)

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    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)

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