Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id JAA23662 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:41:05 GMT Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:18:34 +0000 To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: A Question for Wade Message-ID: <20011130091834.A1185@ii01.org> References: <20011128105832.C1499@ii01.org> <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAMEHMCIAA.email@example.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAMEHMCIAA.firstname.lastname@example.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i From: Robin Faichney <email@example.com> Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com
On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 10:39:50PM -0500, Lawrence DeBivort wrote:
> Thanks Robin. I think I understand what you are getting at. I have not been
> thinking as accents being relevant to memes (because an accent does not add
> to the content of the communication -- though it might add/detract from its
> communicability). Is an accent part of the 'packaging' of the content?
> Interesting question. Let me think a bit about hits.
I don't believe that memes should be associated only with meaning
or content. This view loses what for me is one of the most important
aspects of memetics: objectivity. (And anyway I have quite a
well-developed view of what memes are that says it's not so.)
> I take your point that a communication once made might not find immediate
> acceptance but achieve it later.
That's not what I meant. What I had in mind was an idea that is
uncommunicated at a given point in time, but later communicated. Do we
say that it suddenly then becomes a meme? I think we have to recognise
that this is a purely nomenclatural issue. Insisting that uncommunicated
ideas are not memes is not helpful, but neither is insisting that they
are -- we have to get over issues that are *merely* definitional.
> The thing that interests me about memes
> (and around which I have built the definition that I use) is precisely this
> matter the communication being taken up and disseminated further. If a meme
> is not taken up when it is expressed, then it would have to have to be
> embedded in some medium that will maintain its presence, until someone comes
> along and takes it up. Thus artifacts, books, etc can be such a
> preservative medium.
And that's why the L-meme isn't good enough on its own. But more
generally, I agree that the main application area of memetics is human
> Bucky Fuller was convinced that the world wasn't ready
> for his ideas and that he would die before it was, so he adopted a strategy
> of embedding his memes in artifacts that reflected the intrinsic logic
> meaning of the memes, in the hope that the artifacts would endure and convey
> their embedded message when society was 'ready.'
Very interesting. Thanks. Maybe I should be looking at a similar
-- Robin Faichney alt.m: "Memes do not exist. Tell everyone you know." inside information -- http://www.ii01.org/
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