Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id DAA23009 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Fri, 30 Nov 2001 03:43:18 GMT From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: <email@example.com> Subject: RE: A Question for Wade Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:39:50 -0500 Message-ID: <NEBBKOADILIOKGDJLPMAMEHMCIAA.firstname.lastname@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <20011128105832.C1499@ii01.org> Importance: Normal Sender: email@example.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org
Thanks Robin. I think I understand what you are getting at. I have not been
thinking as accents being relevant to memes (because an accent does not add
to the content of the communication -- though it might add/detract from its
communicability). Is an accent part of the 'packaging' of the content?
Interesting question. Let me think a bit about hits.
I take your point that a communication once made might not find immediate
acceptance but achieve it later. The thing that interests me about memes
(and around which I have built the definition that I use) is precisely this
matter the communication being taken up and disseminated further. If a meme
is not taken up when it is expressed, then it would have to have to be
embedded in some medium that will maintain its presence, until someone comes
along and takes it up. Thus artifacts, books, etc can be such a
preservative medium. Bucky Fuller was convinced that the world wasn't ready
for his ideas and that he would die before it was, so he adopted a strategy
of embedding his memes in artifacts that reflected the intrinsic logic
meaning of the memes, in the hope that the artifacts would endure and convey
their embedded message when society was 'ready.' It is an attractive
strategy, but I wonder how Bucky might have fared had he been even better at
languaging his ideas, and especially to do so with the 'masses.'
> -----Original Message-----
> From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]On Behalf
> Of Robin Faichney
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 5:59 AM
> To: email@example.com
> Subject: Re: A Question for Wade
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 04:11:31PM -0500, Lawrence DeBivort wrote:
> > Scott asks:
> > > What's so special about the "meme" term? Why can't we just use "idea",
> > > "belief", or "concept" to say the same thing? As Ernst Mayr
> says of the
> > > meme:
> > >
> > > (bq) "It seems to me that this word is nothing but an unnecessary
> > > synonym of
> > > the term "concept"." (eq)
> > Yes, unfortunately, some have fallen into this too-broad
> definition of meme.
> > I prefer to limit 'meme' to refer to those ideas, concepts,
> beliefs that are
> > self-disseminating and self-protecting.
> That's funny, because for me it's too narrow.
> While a distinction can certainly be drawn between communicated and
> uncommunicated ideas, I don't see it as very significant, and only in
> relatively rare situations would what is at one point in time an example
> of the latter be barred from later being communicated.
> On the other hand, in a community without linguists or the like, most
> or all characteristics of the local accent are memes of which noone is
> ever conscious, ie memes but not ideas, concepts or beliefs. The value
> of the term meme is that it includes such phenomena.
> "The distinction between mind and matter is in the mind, not in matter."
> Robin Faichney -- inside information -- http://www.ii01.org/
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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