Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA14596 (8.6.9/5.3[ref email@example.com] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from firstname.lastname@example.org); Tue, 27 Nov 2001 04:22:55 GMT Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:17:54 -0800 Message-Id: <200111270417.fAR4Hs517730@mail7.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [184.108.40.206] From: "Joe Dees" <email@example.com> To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: A Question for Wade Sender: email@example.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> Re: A Question for WadeDate: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 22:56:56 -0500
> "Wade T.Smith" <email@example.com> "Memetics Discussion List" <firstname.lastname@example.org>Reply-To: email@example.com
>Hi Joe Dees -
>>You are cutting off exclusively at the end - the product, and saying that
>>only the millions of cars can be memes. I'm pushing inclusively from the
>>beginning, and saying that not only are cars (instantiations of) memes,
>>but so are schematics of cars, auto production factories, and the physical
>>and aesthetic principles governing their construction.
>And, hmmm, I'm not disagreeing with that, at all, except for the very
>last phrase, because, until ideas are embodied, they are not memes, in my
>'only artifacts are memes' stance.
>Yes, the schematics are memes, and the individual nuts and bolts in the
>factory are too.
>But, that's all incidental to the product of the factory, in this case,
>the car. I'm not cutting off anything, any more than biologists cut off
>the trilobite- that it was there is incontrovertible- that it was part of
>the environment and timeline that produced homo sapiens is evident- but,
>we are talking about this particular product at this particular time. (In
>the trilobite's case, it's a fossil, but, that's irrelevant. It was here,
>and we know it. Steam power was here, too, and we know it. We could even
>make it available again for our factory, thanks to all those memes about
>it in the library.)
>The novel meme is introduced, and accepted, or not, and then used, or
>not. The wheel is now everywhere, where once it was only one. But the
>wheel is now something for anyone at any time to grab and use, part of
>the operating environment, common- it's out there, available.
>And nothing is a meme until it is available. And no idea is available
>until it is artifact, of some type.
My memory is (imperfectly) available to me, and much of what is in there was communicated to me by others and I selected, intentionally or inadvertantly, to internalize it. Some of it I mutated (to in my opinion improve upon ideas communicated to me), and some of it I accepted as it came to me. Memes are both product and process;, both structure and function, and although logically distinguishable, empirically, these two aspects are inseparable and inextricable intertwined.
>Now, if that is a violation of the type/token distinction, then I need, I
>guess, to know what that is. A token is a representation, and a type is a
>category, where a token can be something taken for something else, if
>agreed upon culturally, and a type is a general description, like car for
>Cadillac, which is taxonomic and not merely cultural.
>I don't think I'm missing a distinction between those terms, or
A car, and a picture of the same model, and the memory of driving one, and the written-down name of the model, are all part and parcel of the existent memeplex. As such, they share something in common, and that is their meaningful referent; I consider this meaning-relation, independent of how it is instantiated, to be the meme.
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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