Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id EAA14557 (8.6.9/5.3[ref email@example.com] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from firstname.lastname@example.org); Tue, 27 Nov 2001 04:14:06 GMT Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:09:06 -0800 Message-Id: <200111270409.fAR496q16790@mail7.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) X-Originating-Ip: [220.127.116.11] From: "Joe Dees" <email@example.com> To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: Definition, Please Sender: email@example.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
> Re: Definition, PleaseDate: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 23:17:18 -0500
> "Wade T.Smith" <email@example.com> "Memetics Discussion List" <firstname.lastname@example.org>Reply-To: email@example.com
>Hi Philip A.E. Jonkers -
>>Anyway, I'm dwelling, it doesn't mean that the
>>theory is basically wrong or not fruitful.
>Nor do I think so. Parsing the trail of a meme seems to me to be highly
>wonderful. Introducing the cultural quanta of a meme itself is
>delightful. It's just where we put it that's up in the air.
>>It seems that
>>you have little faith in the prospect of memetics being able to explain all
>>the diversity of our culture. What propels you to proclaim such a
>I have little faith (well, I'm not a faithful person at all, ever) in
>anything other than sociobiology to do so, especially when the definition
>of the word culture itself is a filthy mess. It was very nice, indeed, to
>have a quantum of culture, to call it a meme, and then to march on, until
>I came up against the fog created by the absence of a solid definition of
>So, I give to biology all that might be biology's- birdsong and spider's
>webs and termite mounds and even language, maybe. But, since we have
>artifacts, made only by humans, before us, then those are special things,
>deserving of special names. (Hey, unless they're not- unless it's all an
>illusion, culture, human uniqueness, artifacts- it may be that that shiny
>new Lexus in your garage is just the new mutant aphid of your symbiotic
>colony, and all your behaviors to purchase it just the call of the
>Coming down on the side of artifact memes (and artifact memes only),
>don't seem to me to be heretical at all- in fact, I'm pretty sure it's
>one of only three choices that are available- either memes are inside, or
>outside, or some combination of the two. After wrestling with various
>explanations of all three, and then wrestling with the way they interact
>with other models of life, the universe, and everything, I cut out the
>crap with Occam's razor, and I was left with choice number one- memes are
>outside and artifactual, period. What's inside is something else. Human
>evolution requires sexual reproduction, and the only way memetic
>evolution could happen would require a sexual component as well.
>And, so far, sex is physical. And so far, memes are physical. Interior
>sex is, well, impossible. Lust as much as you want in your heart, but, it
>won't make a child.
>That ain't saying that memetic processes don't _involve_ what happens in
>the mind, since, sure, putting one foot before the other is still a
>brain/body process, but, I don't see any need to put a meme in there,
>And, well, I was just getting more and more confused whenever I tried to
>put any there. Right now, keeping them artifactual is enlightening to me.
>Perhaps someone will kick me into internal memes, but, it seems like a
>hard push to shove, and I don't see any science about to do it, and I
>But there ain't nothing so ridiculous that some _philosopher_ won't say
My view is option #2; that memes possess a lifecycle that includes both internal and external components (L-meme + G-meme); they mutate, or not (are stored) mainly within people - and in things like books and databases, which are external memory and copmmunication aids, are propagated between people and are selected for or against within other people.
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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