Re: A Test

From: salice (
Date: Fri Oct 12 2001 - 01:37:38 BST

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    > I said context is all important. Socio-cultural factors are
    >important in the decisions people make, and the cultural trends they
    >follow, or don't follow.

    Yes but people react differently to cultural trends.
    And as i already wrote culture doesn't come from nowhere. People
    invent cultural trends at some point and then they spread when
    some people want it.

    >I'm saying is that I don't think that memes reside in brains.

    I don't see how you can think that. Look, when i read a meme
    somewhere, whatever sentence which you would also agree to be a meme.
    Some sentence. Now i read it, i walk into another room and write it
    down on a clean sheet of paper. So it has to be in whatever way in my
    brain how else could i remember it and write it down again?

    > One way
    >to dispute this simplistic reductionism is by questioning the
    >presence of memes in brains. That's all I've been trying to do by
    >making the case for the artefactual meme (or G-meme after Derek
    >Gatherer's ideas).

    I'm not against your and Dereks concept of artefactual memes!
    I totally agree to that, but i also believe that memes get also
    stored in the brain. And more importantly: SELECTED! A book can't
    copy itself, it needs a human to do it.

    >What made those memes begin to spread again and more widely than
    >before was not a product of individual choice, but of social
    >circumstances that made notions of democracy attractive.

    In the end it was individualS choice because i mean someone had to
    read the book, some people had to take the neccessary action after
    reading. Cultural change doesn't happen automatically. It needs
    people who get active.

    > And that not everyone spreads the same memes can be seen quite
    > easily in reality too, so what's my problem?>
    >In seeing a simple line from genes to brains to memes to culture.

    I don't see this simple line. I agree to co-evolution theory.
    But not dna here, memes there.

    >Part of the basic point of memetics is that culture is, at least to
    >some extent, off the leash from being determined by the genes, and
    >may operate by its own processes, which may in turn operate
    >according to an evolutionary model akin to the replicator theory of
    >natural selection.

    Well if there's natural selection, there must be some selection.And
    i think in most cases people do this. And here again, no other
    examples could be given from you.

    I can even think of a few others. Like internet 'agents', programs
    who look for information and select which to present to the user.
    That would be an example of a non-human selection. But still, this
    program was programmed by a human and humans use it, if they want to.

    > To refer back to the Greek example, it's also a bit like the
    >differences between Athenian democracy and mass democracy.

    It's sure different. But a mass is still a large amount of people.
    You can abstract culture but in the end people live out cultural
    trends, behaviours or decide to change culture.

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