Re: Memes, Culture, People

From: Kenneth Van Oost (
Date: Sat Oct 06 2001 - 22:11:00 BST

  • Next message: salice: "Re: What/who selects memes?"

    Received: by id VAA05127 (8.6.9/5.3[ref] for from; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 21:31:18 +0100
    Message-ID: <001c01c14eab$7d53c2a0$2aaabed4@default>
    From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <>
    To: <>
    References: <>
    Subject: Re: Memes, Culture, People
    Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 23:11:00 +0200
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    X-Priority: 3
    X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
    X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
    X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
    Precedence: bulk

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: salice <>
    To: <>

    > I think you all agree that memes have quite a huge influence on
    > a humans life, so what memes are people most likely to get
    > exposed to, by which memes do they get influenced most? I think that
    > culture is a set of memes, which people living in this culture are
    > most likely to get exposed to. Certain memes are more widely spread or
    > more accepted(!) than others in a culture. My question is, how far
    > does this set of memes in a culture influence the life of a human in
    > there? Is everyone able to adapt to the existing culture in the same
    > way? Then finally, how does change in culture and therefore change in
    > acceptance of certain memes happen? By rare accident or independent
    > meme-evolution or by people who are unhappy with existing culture
    > therefore unable or unwilling to adapt to certain parts of it?
    > Cultural evolution happens in my eyes when a more satisfying version
    > for a number of people exists and when there is enough acceptance
    > and force with these people. I'm not only talking about nazism,
    > socialism and so on. I mean general culture, all aspects of it.

    Hi Salice, once again,

    This is an interesting topic. You already guessed I suppose, but from my
    point of view memes play a far more extremer role in our society than
    most co- list members would agree on, but what you are implying here
    is what I call memetic determinism, that we are stuck with the memes we
    have. That we, in a way can 't grasp what other cultures mean, experience,
    feel, hear or see. We are not righlty " influenced " by the memes of our
    culture due to the fact that we " learn " most memes of our culture.
    Influence is most of something from outside what slips in, like Zen slips
    in our European mode of life, that sort of thing.

    And no, not everyone is able to adapt the existing culture.
    A few months ago, Lawrence de Bivort and I had quit a discussion about
    people determinating themselves along self- dilated lineages of thought.
    Sometimes things happens in someone's life where they are ought to jump
    right on it to contradict the effects. Cultural and other memes have then
    no longer effect because the " natural evolution " of memetical thought
    in someone 's life is brutally cut off by those events.
    And if you don 't have any reference framework to work with you ' make '
    your own, refine it and live by it. Trying to fit it into the existing
    cultural framework is no option because that is not ' evolved ' along such
    lines of thought_ you will always stay the ' outsider '....

    Change in culture and therefore change in acceptance of certain memes
    happens just along those specific lines of thought.
    Most changes are due, IMO to people who are not really unhappy, but
    are more not able to adapt to the existing culture because their personal
    memetical and genetical built up says it otherwise.
    In a way, not only genetical lineages exists but also memetical ones.
    Change and evolution happens on two levels, the collective and the
    personal/ individual one, but IMO, the individual one is far more important,
    because he/ she not only set his/ hers ( changed) genes over to the
    but also a part, partly, some,... memes, memetical aspects.... than, to take
    the wind out of many their sails here, inscribded in the genes or not.

    Self- determination by memetic engineering oneself leaves you with a
    far more greater view upon things within culture and society.
    You are yourself the framework where against you can compare the
    effects, aspects and influences of any culture.
    You are part of that culture but at the same time you stand complety
    out of it.

    Best regards,


    ( I am, because we are) seemingly working

    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sat Oct 06 2001 - 21:36:40 BST