Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA05127 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Sat, 6 Oct 2001 21:31:18 +0100 Message-ID: <001c01c14eab$7d53c2a0$2aaabed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <E15onVYemail@example.com> Subject: Re: Memes, Culture, People Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 23:11:00 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com
----- Original Message -----
From: salice <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> I think you all agree that memes have quite a huge influence on
> a humans life, so what memes are people most likely to get
> exposed to, by which memes do they get influenced most? I think that
> culture is a set of memes, which people living in this culture are
> most likely to get exposed to. Certain memes are more widely spread or
> more accepted(!) than others in a culture. My question is, how far
> does this set of memes in a culture influence the life of a human in
> there? Is everyone able to adapt to the existing culture in the same
> way? Then finally, how does change in culture and therefore change in
> acceptance of certain memes happen? By rare accident or independent
> meme-evolution or by people who are unhappy with existing culture
> therefore unable or unwilling to adapt to certain parts of it?
> Cultural evolution happens in my eyes when a more satisfying version
> for a number of people exists and when there is enough acceptance
> and force with these people. I'm not only talking about nazism,
> socialism and so on. I mean general culture, all aspects of it.
Hi Salice, once again,
This is an interesting topic. You already guessed I suppose, but from my
point of view memes play a far more extremer role in our society than
most co- list members would agree on, but what you are implying here
is what I call memetic determinism, that we are stuck with the memes we
have. That we, in a way can 't grasp what other cultures mean, experience,
feel, hear or see. We are not righlty " influenced " by the memes of our
culture due to the fact that we " learn " most memes of our culture.
Influence is most of something from outside what slips in, like Zen slips
in our European mode of life, that sort of thing.
And no, not everyone is able to adapt the existing culture.
A few months ago, Lawrence de Bivort and I had quit a discussion about
people determinating themselves along self- dilated lineages of thought.
Sometimes things happens in someone's life where they are ought to jump
right on it to contradict the effects. Cultural and other memes have then
no longer effect because the " natural evolution " of memetical thought
in someone 's life is brutally cut off by those events.
And if you don 't have any reference framework to work with you ' make '
your own, refine it and live by it. Trying to fit it into the existing
cultural framework is no option because that is not ' evolved ' along such
lines of thought_ you will always stay the ' outsider '....
Change in culture and therefore change in acceptance of certain memes
happens just along those specific lines of thought.
Most changes are due, IMO to people who are not really unhappy, but
are more not able to adapt to the existing culture because their personal
memetical and genetical built up says it otherwise.
In a way, not only genetical lineages exists but also memetical ones.
Change and evolution happens on two levels, the collective and the
personal/ individual one, but IMO, the individual one is far more important,
because he/ she not only set his/ hers ( changed) genes over to the
but also a part, partly, some,... memes, memetical aspects.... than, to take
the wind out of many their sails here, inscribded in the genes or not.
Self- determination by memetic engineering oneself leaves you with a
far more greater view upon things within culture and society.
You are yourself the framework where against you can compare the
effects, aspects and influences of any culture.
You are part of that culture but at the same time you stand complety
out of it.
( I am, because we are) seemingly working
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