Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id SAA04643 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Sat, 6 Oct 2001 18:09:49 +0100 Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 18:02:54 +0100 To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: Genes are Memes Message-ID: <20011006180254.A704@ii01.org> References: <E15peHu-0004T3email@example.com>; <20011006093210.A967@ii01.org> <E15puIMfirstname.lastname@example.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.15i In-Reply-To: <E15puIMemail@example.com>; from firstname.lastname@example.org on Sat, Oct 06, 2001 at 06:25:05PM +0000 From: Robin Faichney <email@example.com> Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com
On Sat, Oct 06, 2001 at 06:25:05PM +0000, salice wrote:
> > There's no such meme until the gene is discovered and described.
> > Otherwise, we'd have to ask "who" created all the memes that are
> > "discovered" by physicists etc. In fact, memes are in behaviour,
> > books and brains, but not (otherwise) in nature.
> I think that memes are also in nature.
> Nature shows behavior, when scientists observe how an animal hunts
> or how planets move around the sun they observe behavior of
> nature. In this way this behavior could also be called a meme, the
> only problem is, that is hard to say who created that behavior.
If everything is a meme, then the concept is useless. Fortunately,
that's not so. Replication of behaviour is required.
> Another point.
> Humans already change and changed nature for decades. When you look
> at an avenue with trees at it's side, then the way these trees stand
> there is not the natural grown structural pattern but the way humans
> made it. So humans can find memes in nature, some they put into it,
> some which just exist and can be received.
That memes can affect nature through human behaviour is very obvious.
> Whether a scientist actually "discovers" or "constructs" a meme is
> really interesting and could probably both be true.
Memes can only be discovered in the brains and behaviour of humans
and the other species in which individuals learn from each other.
> For example, some scientists observed the sun in the sky. They
> discovered the meme which describes the movement of the sun. But
Of course, memes can carry information about physics and astronomy, etc.
If that makes the "behaviour" of the sun memetic, then so is absolutely
everything else. But it's not.
-- Robin Faichney "It is tempting to suppose that some concept of information could serve eventually to unify mind, matter, and meaning in a single theory," say Daniel Dennett and John Haugeland. The theory is here: http://www.ii01.org/
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