Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id VAA25162 (8.6.9/5.3[ref email@example.com] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from firstname.lastname@example.org); Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:16:30 +0100 Message-ID: <001701c13d5f$ab343f40$e5a0bed4@default> From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be> To: <email@example.com> References: <3B8BA216.42CA25F@bioinf.man.ac.uk><004101c130d4$01b31c80$d386b2d1@teddace><001501c138a3$208b2860$b7a2bed4@default> <003f01c13b03$491f1900$8d88b2d1@teddace> Subject: Re: Clincher? Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:33:21 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Dace <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sounds like you're trying to express evolution entirely in terms of memes.
<< Is there in your opinion still a genetic evolution !?
I don 't think so ! memes took over the genetical tracks a very long
Where the ape- man stopped and homo sapiens began, memes took
over, despite the fact that genetic mutations due to natural selection
occured. But, that IMO, is all a result of memetic evolution at work.
The early human being transformed itself by creating new needs for
itself, les besoins remerber !?
Genes yield certain bodily and neurological characteristics.
<< Yes, but all for memetical driven reasons !!
There is no parallel track left. Memes drag genes along the way they ride,
there is IMO, not even co -evolution.
Memes yield certain cultural preferences.
We're like trains running on parallel tracks. The
question is whether both tracks are directed selfishly and blindly (Dawkins)
or if bodily and cultural traits follow from freely-chosen adaptations
(Sheldrake). Can we comprehend genes and memes atomistically,
or do we need the holistic context of the organism?
<< My first impression !? We need the context.
> Lamarck writes, " Or, cet ébranlement subit donne lieu à l' instant à une
> reaction qui, rapporteé à toutes parts au foyer commun,..." ( page 518,
> Philosophie Zoologique).
Of course, Lamarck is talking about a fluid subtil, when this is ' shaken ',
( ébranler) the whole of the organism feels it.
This ' shaken ' give rise to a reaction which is brought from all parts of
the body into the centre.
IOW, what is felt by any part of the body, mind, brain, senses, is felt
troughtout the body.
> And yes, to round this up, we have to see Lamarck, approach Lamarck
> as indeed as the origin of the genuine study of mind.
> IMO, Lamarck is and was always misread.
> Lamarckism has to be dealt with as it were psychology, not biology.
As Scott (tentatively) pointed out, it was Lamarck who plucked mentality out
of "metaphysical" abstraction and put it squarely in the domain of biology.
Minds are living, and therefore psychology is a subset of biology. But that
doesn't mean minds are reducible to brains (any more than brains are
reducible to minds). The point is that biology is the study of mind as
much as matter. Every organic structure is guided by natural memory. In
that sense, minds are integral to all levels of organic activity, not just
neurological. There's no possibility of understanding life without
<< Yes, of course not, but Lamarck, especially in part III of Philosophie
Zoologique tried, at least in my opinion, to write psychology and not
so quite biology. In order to write and even to understand psychology,
he wrote a lot about biology_ how the brain, the body, the nerves etc,
according to him worked and intertwingled.
That is why, in the memetic context of things, IMO, Lamarck can con-
tribute to memetics in general and to the understanding of mind in
He talks about habits, the nervous system, about_ instinct, sensations, la
sensibilité physique, émotions, the will, morality... all things we find
in one way or the other in memetics.
( I am, because we are) all New Yorkers
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