Re: Logic + universal evolution

From: Philip Jonkers (
Date: Tue Aug 07 2001 - 18:05:59 BST

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    Subject: Re: Logic + universal evolution
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    Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 19:05:59 +0200 (CEST)
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    Wade and Philip embarked on the question:

    > > >how do you account for the
    > > >existence of the world?
    > >
    > > Is evolution, as a process, applicable to the universe universally?
    > I
    > wonder.
    > >
    > > Personally, I have no problem seeing it as a process of life, but, I
    > > don't see the same connection with the other materials of this
    > realm,
    > > which can't really be said to replicate.

    Hi Pascal,

    First of all, with `world' I actually meant `living world'.
    Anyway, your ideas of a `takeover' theory are interesting
    but hard to confirm (or falsify). Allow me to philosopize.
    During the birth of our universe it may be that, in
    the brief instant of particle generation during the big-bang,
    neutrons, protons and electrons might have acted as the first
    stable replicators. These particles may have
    acquired their huge abundance by generating themselves from the
    tiny sea of infinitely density. When all particles were created
    this replicating process ceased and the universe started to
    expand from the interactions (electromagnetic and strong forces)
    between the newly created particles. Since these particles are
    obviously stable (long decaying half-time) it may be the end-product
    of some evolutionary generative process. But this is all
    metaphysics and, as far as I can see, not really open to
    scientific studies or debate I'm afraid.

    On evolution on a universal scale you might wanna check out
    the site displaying a paper by the physicist Lee Smolin:

    The paper mentions an interesting hypothesis (also defying testing
    though) which treats our present universe as a product of
    a natural selection process too. Smolin argues that each
    black hole potentially spawns a new universe in which, if conditions
    are favorable, new stars are generated. From the dying most massive
    stars black hole may emerge which, in turn, may generate new
    universes etc.

    > I would really appreciate your opinions.
    > - Can you imagine how many more takovers there could have been from the
    > big
    > bang to the 'genetic takeover' ?

    Well, the evolutionary generation of particles just prior to the
    big-bang instant I sketched just above.
    > - Can you think of any mythological scheme that could fit with such a
    > view ?

    What's the use of mythology in the field of contemporary
    science or philosophy? Am I correct when I say that the use of
    mythology lies in making certain issues clear to the lay-man
    which fails to understand the issue in its abstract but honest
    > - Did you notice that in each takeover, the 'lead' is taken over by what
    > was
    > formerly created as a tool by the older realm, to project itself into
    > the
    > future ? (We animals might have been created by 'mother' earth as tools
    > to
    > shape her into her future...)
    > - Can you figure out what sort of takeover could happen after the one we
    > are
    > experiencing now (DNA --> meme) ?

    As Blackmore argues in `the Meme-machine' the meme inside humans
    are not really stable entities when it comes to fecundity,
    fidelity and longevity.
    It can easily be argued that memes stored and processed digitally
    in computers are much more successful. I cannot really predict
    a follow up of the meme in the near future, but I can, however,
    anticipate a change of meme-vehicles: from the human brain to the
    processing units of the artificial intelligence computers.
    > - Can you ever piss in a river again ?

    Excuse me? The world is your urinal....

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