Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id LAA18101 (8.6.9/5.3[ref email@example.com] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from firstname.lastname@example.org); Sun, 29 Jul 2001 11:44:08 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c1181c$23c134e0$9afaf8c1@necdirect> From: "Pascal Jouxtel" <email@example.com> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <20010728194640.AAA20217@email@example.com> Subject: Re: Logic + universal evolution Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 12:49:26 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com
A bientot sur / see you soon on
Tell your friends / parlez-en à vos amis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wade T.Smith" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
To: "Memetics Discussion List" <email@example.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: Logic + universal evolution
> Hi Pascal Jouxtel -
> >Assuming that DNA (and with it the whole bio realm) is one piece in a
> >of successive replicators, preceeded by clay
> Life is, perhaps, the symptom we know of from our local replicators, but,
> that clay (the primordial soup, eh?) was, unfortunately for your poetic
> takeover of natural history, not a replicator.
> Clay is wet granulated rock.
> Very specific and special wet granulated rock, granted, but, rock
I would not have thought of clay cristals as replicating code myself before
I read AG Cairns-Smith's book (of which I had read about in 'the blind
watchmaker'. ) AGCS's argumentation is very convincing, and the idea that
neither evolution nor life started with organic molecules seems acceptable
check it here
Did you ever stand by a river (or seen a glimmering lazy stream from a
plane) and feel that you were close to an ancient lifeform ?
BTW, as far as memetic creatures are concerned, I believe poetry to be worth
as much as science.
Along the way, you will also recognize that the 'takeover' hypothesis is an
alternative to the 'primordial soup' hypothesis, which has it that sheer
statistic encounter between simple molecules built up larger molecules. That
is the contrary of the 'archway scaffolding' vision of AGCS.
> Life and the organics are a special form of matter, and, to me so far at
> least, evolution is only sensible in this realm.>
> There are processes and physics that matter does and that happen
> geologically, (like the formation of clay), but, replication is not one
> of them.
> Thus, there were no 'takeovers' before life got in the way.
When did life get in the way ? How do you call what was before it ?
'life got in the way' sounds very 'hand of god' to me.
> >(We animals might have been created by 'mother' earth as tools to
> >shape her into her future...)
> The Gaia hypothesis is prettily packaged, but, empty inside.
> - Wade
OK, Wade, maybe I was taken too far there! Forget about Gaia, it was
probably the less important part of my idea.
The central point was the use of 'tools'. I have a hint that in evolution,
steps forward are sometimes made when a temporary expression of life is
using 'tools'. How ?
If a clay particle is surrounded with organic 'coating', it might achieve
mechanical properties that will allow it, when dried in the sun, to be
carried by the wind further than non coated particles, thus inseminating
another water pool with its cristalline structure. It will subsequently
last longer and eventually becomme locally dominant. I take that example
from 'the blind watchmaker'. Minerals might have 'used' organic pre-life as
tools. But the notions of 'use' and 'tools' are viewed retrospectively, and
the words are inapropriate because they contain the notions of intention and
Another example (this one completely hypothetical) might be that shapeless
matter encoutering matter structured into particles (like quarks, and so
forth) would result in more matter being structured. This is another way of
saying that the coded structure of matter has been replicating, and locally
became dominant because statistically, shaped matter lasted longer than
I am still in need of experimental elements to prove this one. if someone
knows where they are, please tell us.
As for the present takeover, no need to explicit the 'tool' nature of things
like culture, law, science, technology, speech, logic, and even thinking.
The point I am getting at is : 'tools' is another word for 'next step in
Give a hug to your lawnmower for me.
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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