RE: Logic

From: Lawrence DeBivort (debivort@umd5.umd.edu)
Date: Mon Jul 23 2001 - 17:58:29 BST

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    From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
    To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
    Subject: RE: Logic
    Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:58:29 -0400
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    Salut, Pascal

    I like your identification of 'logic' as a memetic entity.

    In our work with memes, we use the concept of 'meta-memes', memes that are
    specifically about memes and beliefs. "Faith", "Logic", "Authority",
    "Experience" are among these meta-memes. They address beliefs we hold about
    how to what what is 'true' or 'right' and what is not. Meta-memes are
    subject to the same memetic dynamics as memes: they are subject to
    counter-(meta)memes, and forms of cognitive attack or modification.

    Can you say more about why logic is a memeplex, rather that a meme (or
    meta-meme)? What is your distinction between a meme and a memeplex? (We use
    the memeplex term to refer to a group of memes that both augment each
    other's potency and are substantively interrelated.)

    Laurent de Bivort
    The Memetic Group

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
    > Of Pascal Jouxtel
    > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 5:13 PM
    > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Subject: Re: Logic
    >
    >
    > Bonsoir, TJ and Philip
    >
    > Same answer for me.
    > Logic is one of those memeplexes so powerful that they have become
    > absolutely dominant; dominant to such an extent that the very stuff of our
    > thoughts relies on it, and that we don't even see them anymore.
    >
    > I suppose the same could be said of other memeplexes like the
    > Self, and also
    > like another one almost invisible, which I should call 'the existence and
    > unicity of reality'. We all agree on that. Suppose we didn't... in
    > situations where we do not think or act according to the 'existence and
    > unicity of reality', other memes get quite difficult to pass on, because
    > communication itself between two people becomes awkward. It also, like
    > philip said, gets difficult to come to satisfactory solutions. Imagine you
    > want to shake hands with someone and share a cup of coffee, and you don't
    > agree about both of you being in the same place, or being of the same
    > species, or even being simutlaneously at all. If you don't agree
    > about hands
    > being hands, and coffee being coffee.
    > These basic dominant memeplexes can come in handy in the morning !
    >
    > About logic, I would add that the 'logic' meme has mostly been enforced by
    > cartesian western civilisation, but it is not absolutely world-wide. I was
    > listening to the radio today, and a guy was reporting precisely about
    > non-logical things he had witnessed in Africa, South America and Asia. For
    > example, he told about a village in Africa where people had suffered from
    > sickness, deaths, cattle diseases, famine, and so forth. They had come to
    > the conclusion that someone in the village had used black magic to curse
    > them. But nobody would dare to inquire or turn his neighbor in,
    > for fear of
    > retaliations. So they asked the 'feticheur'. He had all villagers
    > gather in
    > a big circle, and with his machette, he cut a chicken's head. The chicken
    > managed to walk a few metres without it's head, and fell dead at
    > the feet of
    > an old man. The feticheur did it one more time, and the second beheaded
    > chicken picked the same man again. He screamed and confessed : He had done
    > the deed. All trouble in the village stopped. This is not logic. But it
    > worked for those people, so the meme passed on that european
    > logic should be
    > resisted because it does not help solve problems.
    >
    > A bientot, les amis !
    > Pascal
    >
    > A bientot sur / see you soon on
    > www.contagions.com
    > Tell your friends / parlez-en vos amis
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Philip Jonkers" <P.A.E.Jonkers@phys.rug.nl>
    > To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
    > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 6:18 PM
    > Subject: Re: Logic
    >
    >
    > > Hi TJ,
    > >
    > >
    > > Is logic a meme?
    > >
    > >
    > > Logic offers reasonable answers to rational questions. It is
    > > a reflection of how the physical world works. Nature ultimately
    > > works according to the laws of logic, if it didn't there would be
    > > no such place as our universe in the first place. Anyway, to solve a
    > technical
    > > or physical problem requires logic to arrive at a satisfactory
    > > working solution. Having a solution based not on logic will have to
    > > rely on luck or brute-force operant conditioning (trial-and-error).
    > > In general, if the problem solver uses logic he will come to a higher
    > > quality solution in less time and with less expenditure of resources.
    > >
    > > Therefore, the logical approach to any problem will be preferred
    > > over other - less logical and more irrational - angles.
    > > People will gain competitive edges by developing an affinity
    > > for emphasizing logic in their problem solving approach. In the past,
    > > there ought to have been a true genetic interest in developing,
    > > either via creation or imitation, logical behavior. This means a memetic
    > > drive towards thinking more-and-more logical, analogous to the
    > > memetic driving leading to the big human brain as Susan Blackmore
    > > argues in `The Meme-Machine'.
    > > It therefore seems only logical (!) to infer that, YES, logic is
    > > synonymous to an extremely powerful memeplex. This niche is supported
    > > by the existence of the whole realm of rational-thought disciplines
    > > built on logic. Mathematics, science and technology are examples of
    > > extremely successful memeplexes which would not have come to existence
    > without
    > > logic.
    > >
    > > Indeed, I owe it to logic that I'm capable of coming to the conclusion
    > > that, indeed, logic is a memeplex, and a very successful one at that.
    > >
    > > Cheers,
    > >
    > > Philip Jonkers.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > ===============================================================
    > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit

    ===============================================================
    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit



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