Re: Memetic vulnerability: was: Faking It

From: Chris Taylor (
Date: Fri Jul 20 2001 - 12:49:29 BST

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    Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:49:29 +0100
    From: Chris Taylor <>
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    Subject: Re: Memetic vulnerability: was: Faking It
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    > The meme already thrives but is not yet determinated.
    > And yes, already niches are occupied by it in the present but for all
    > already in the future too.
    > And yes, adaptive forces are all already working by and on it, already
    > present ( and future ) memes change by the meme's not yet deter-
    > minated presence !?

    Good point - future memes evolving into niches created with the current
    meme set. This is fundamentally what our brains are there for IMHO -
    prediction from realistic modelling reusing past experience. Not just
    experience though - biases, imagined things, guesses (reapplying a meme
    in a new context), lies from others etc.. That's where the problems

    > Then of course there's kin selection, so you'll tolerate and do things for
    > relatives, reciprocal alturism where you'll do something for your neighbour
    > if there's a good chance of something in return for you, otherwise, everyone
    > else is competition to, very generally speaking, be aggressive towards.

    Interesting though - this kin thing can demonstrate how far removed we
    are from our genetics. I know quite a few people (especially amongst us
    GenXers) who find themselves as (or even more) protective of friends as
    family. Biological kin selection is all based on the number of genes you
    are likely to have in common (high between sibs); this applies in
    memetics - you will (memetically) have lots in common with family (and
    the other love-based irrational stuff) but you may have more memes in
    common with friends - who will benefit from the exact same kin selective
    favouritism - kin of the mind (yeuch).

    > I've always assumed tribalism was more of the center - territorialism.
    > And I've come to this mostly because animals don't give too much of a
    > shit about things other than their local turf, and because the outsider
    > is usually an enemy. So the tribe is the important family to protect, and
    > one's location in the tribe is ego territory.

    The twist here (considering Wade's and Vincent's comments together) is
    that we seem to be aware of various degrees of shared stuff in different
    lights - gang vs gang, town vs town, country vs country, and if you've
    ever read The Watchmen, you'll know how humans vs (fake) aliens can
    suddenly end a world war (ok gimme some licence here) by making us
    realise how much all humans share, memetically (sweet, isn't it). Group
    selection is a minefield, but does occur, and under more or less the
    same rules as kin selection - it's just more dilute. And it goes the
    other way - genes work in sub-genomic cooperative groups (although a
    situation with competitors is unlikely), and we have the term memeplex
    to throw around (and memeplexes do compete)...

    > chickens with teeth

    was just as you said - also with scaly tails! The ancestral gnome
    (sorry, genome) thing is interesting too. That ancestral genome never
    existed, but does in some ways provide a 'centroid' in genotype space
    for the species that did exist at the time.

     Chris Taylor ( »people»chris

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