Re: sexual selection and memes

From: Kenneth Van Oost (
Date: Fri Jul 06 2001 - 21:27:19 BST

  • Next message: Kenneth Van Oost: "Re: sexual selection and memes"

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    From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <>
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    Subject: Re: sexual selection and memes
    Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:27:19 +0200
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    Hi Vincent,
    You wrote
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Vincent Campbell <>

    > > <Maybe in order to know its efficiency you have to look for the
    > > " collective stream" , the overall stream of data and not look at the
    > > individual distortion which seems to pop up very easily !?>
    > Didn't someone else on the list imply the same idea as your here
    > Kenneth, that there's some kind of central core of a meme that gets
    > even if extraneous elements don't always survive. I suppose there's a
    > of literal truth in that, given things like religions, on the other hand
    > not sure how we might work out how some aspects of a meme (or
    communication containing memes) persist and other aspects do not. I don't
    know if that makes sense at all.

    << Yes, Chris Taylor a few days ago !!

    In other words, what stops the bits that get successfully transmitted from
    being distorted or forgotten like the other parts?

    << Maybe we must imply that each single idea/ meme or matter consist
    out of seperate elements !?
    An analogy would be an atomcore surrounded with it neutrons and pro-
    tons. The nucleus is the centre- bit of the idea, its neutrons and protons
    are distorted whenever bombarded with environmental aspects.

    Another way, even more hypothetical than the one above is to place
    a quantum- like mechanic upon the idea. That is_
    if whatever idea/ meme or matter as such exist in the space- time geome-
    try ( a conflictual pluralistic concept) 2 possibilities were accounted for,
    1_ self- collapse, the idea/ the meme/ the matter reaches its own funda-
    mental treshold and pops up as something Conscient/ Natural by which
    all aspects ( each is an occasion of experience) were accounted for and
    are all right and true:- in a sense the ' true centre '.

    2_collapse or simple reduction, the ideas bounderies are enlarged by
    interactions of the environment, that is due to eximination, the search into
    the matter, investigations, new discoveries etc eventually it is bound to
    collapse in something new.
    In a sense, we are taking away each time a neutron/ proton, we nibble
    at the centre without ever destroying it.
    You can 't " kill " ideas, just the people who long to them.

    What eventually stops the bits from being distorted !?
    Well, maybe the answer lies not in the meme itself but in the way we
    look at the meme.
    We can pre- suppose, that memes thru' their evolution were capable
    of making more efficient ways to propagate themselves.
    One way, according to thoughts of Nietzsche, we look upon ideas as
    they were ' individuals ' with whom we must fight, by which you should
    commit yourself to, which you should care for, cherish or reject.

    In a sense this is fundamental true, memes ARE us, and in a way they
    express themselves as they were ' part of ourselves '.
    The question of course, are memes made in such a way that they force us
    to cherish them/ to care for them or to reject them !?
    In other words, to see/ experience a meme/ an idea or a matter NOT
    as an ' individual ' is practically impossible.
    In a way, it is an non- computable process; " placing " the same odd
    idea in each and every mind would be not " evolutionary ", but in a
    sense that is just what happens_ variants are only being born because
    for example, our genetic built- up is not the same; the social context is
    not the same; other meme(plexes) are stronger or weaker.

    That is_ the above mentioned reduction would be effectively random to
    be called an useful non- computable evolutionary process:- the collapse
    of the very first triggers an cascade of others which can 't be stopped.
    IMO, each meme/ idea or matter has something of a " personification "
    about itself_ " and this way might be my way of the organism way of
    manipulating my body "_ to maximise its chances of survival/ propagation/
    passage to the next brain by for example, setting up a set of conflicts
    and differences between people and me.

    This is a long shot,

    Best regards,


    ( I am, because we are) still

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