Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id AAA01430 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:21:43 +0100 From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: email@example.com Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:24:20 -0500 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Best place to locate the 'self' is in the brain: from the Virus List Message-ID: <3AD895D4.15377.66B4B9@localhost> In-reply-to: <OE64KLpgTFur2iz2Mb1000009d6@hotmail.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com
On 14 Apr 2001, at 17:43, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
> This is a classic experiment in social psychology since 198X. It
> neither new nor unreplicated. The chimpanzees succeeded only after
> training, much training. Other primates did not, even after a lot of
> training. Other animals (e.g. dogs, elephants) did not. Kids get
> self-consciousness by 1 1/2 - 2 years of age or so. It is NOT innate.
> Species who develop this only do so by social learning. Of course,
> all what is neurologically needed must be there a priori.
> The «self» is a concept built by man. It is probably not localized
> accurately anywhere : the brain does not adapt to please the concepts
> we develop. I do not think it is related to the limbic system. The
> limbic system is very old. The neocortex as we know it in humans and
> advanced primates is not. Emotion exists in animals because of the
> limbic system and MANY other interactions (e.g. frontal lobe) in the
> CNS which are not known (the limbic system alone is insufficient).
> Emotions's functions are useless without superior information
> processing. It is believed older species do not have emotions (fish
> and amphibians). Self-consciousness do not exists in many animals.
> Therefore, it would be strange to conclude that the «self» - if it is
> localized somewhere - is related to the limbic system. There are
> probably interactions with it because (one reason among many others)
> the self is related to monitoring and it implies affective processes.
> Also, we must not confuse the self with self-consciousness.
> Self-consciousness is only ONE of the many processes of the self. It
> is NOT the self. Chimpanzees do not necessarily have a self only
> because they have self-consciousness.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RavenBlack" <email@example.com>
> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 4:06 AM
> Subject: Re: virus: Re: Fwd: Best place to locate the 'self' is in the
> > Joe Dees quoted:
> > > If you train a monkey to look in a mirror, then put a dab of
> > > odorless red dye on its eyebrow, the monkey will try to rub the
> > > dye off the mirror. If you do the same with a chimpanzee, this
> > > more advanced ape will wipe its own eyebrow.
> > Have you ever seen a reference to this experiment that goes into
> > detail, Joe? I still want to see one that mentions controls, numbers
> > and times. I don't find "a monkey" and "a chimpanzee" to be an
> > awfully convincing experiment, and I'm sure you don't either. And
> > the way the statement is phrased above is perhaps even worse,
> > implying that *every* monkey and *every* chimpanzee with react as
> > described - surely not something that could safely be inferred from
> > any (feasible) amount of test results.
> > --RavenBlack
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