Best place to locate the 'self' is in the brain: from the Virus List

Date: Sun Apr 15 2001 - 00:24:20 BST

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    Subject: Best place to locate the 'self' is in the  brain: from the Virus List
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    On 14 Apr 2001, at 17:43, wrote:

    > Hello.
    > This is a classic experiment in social psychology since 198X. It
    > is
    > neither new nor unreplicated. The chimpanzees succeeded only after
    > training, much training. Other primates did not, even after a lot of
    > training. Other animals (e.g. dogs, elephants) did not. Kids get
    > self-consciousness by 1 1/2 - 2 years of age or so. It is NOT innate.
    > Species who develop this only do so by social learning. Of course,
    > all what is neurologically needed must be there a priori.
    > The «self» is a concept built by man. It is probably not localized
    > accurately anywhere : the brain does not adapt to please the concepts
    > we develop. I do not think it is related to the limbic system. The
    > limbic system is very old. The neocortex as we know it in humans and
    > advanced primates is not. Emotion exists in animals because of the
    > limbic system and MANY other interactions (e.g. frontal lobe) in the
    > CNS which are not known (the limbic system alone is insufficient).
    > Emotions's functions are useless without superior information
    > processing. It is believed older species do not have emotions (fish
    > and amphibians). Self-consciousness do not exists in many animals.
    > Therefore, it would be strange to conclude that the «self» - if it is
    > localized somewhere - is related to the limbic system. There are
    > probably interactions with it because (one reason among many others)
    > the self is related to monitoring and it implies affective processes.
    > Also, we must not confuse the self with self-consciousness.
    > Self-consciousness is only ONE of the many processes of the self. It
    > is NOT the self. Chimpanzees do not necessarily have a self only
    > because they have self-consciousness.
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "RavenBlack" <>
    > To: <>
    > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 4:06 AM
    > Subject: Re: virus: Re: Fwd: Best place to locate the 'self' is in the
    > brain
    > > Joe Dees quoted:
    > >
    > > > If you train a monkey to look in a mirror, then put a dab of
    > > > odorless red dye on its eyebrow, the monkey will try to rub the
    > > > dye off the mirror. If you do the same with a chimpanzee, this
    > > > more advanced ape will wipe its own eyebrow.
    > >
    > > Have you ever seen a reference to this experiment that goes into
    > > detail, Joe? I still want to see one that mentions controls, numbers
    > > and times. I don't find "a monkey" and "a chimpanzee" to be an
    > > awfully convincing experiment, and I'm sure you don't either. And
    > > the way the statement is phrased above is perhaps even worse,
    > > implying that *every* monkey and *every* chimpanzee with react as
    > > described - surely not something that could safely be inferred from
    > > any (feasible) amount of test results.
    > >
    > > --RavenBlack
    > >
    > >

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