From: Scott Chase (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Fri 10 Feb 2006 - 03:22:20 GMT
>From: Douglas Brooker <email@example.com>
>Subject: Re: Cartoon meme
>Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:02:40 +0000
>Scott Chase wrote:
>>>From: Wade Allsopp <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>>>Subject: Re: Cartoon meme
>>>Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 22:08:40 +0000
>>>On 2/8/06, Douglas Brooker wrote:
>>> > latest story at the guardian.co.uk is that the original paper in
>>> > is joining up with the Iranian paper that's having a holcaust cartoon
>>> > contest - they're hoping to publish the winning entries jointly.
>>>That's an interesting development. British TV showed an example of
>>>one of these "holocaust" cartoons 2 days ago published by the Arab
>>>European League. A picture of Anne Frank in bed with Adolph Hitler and
>>>another denying the holocaust took place.
>>>The matter seems to have metamorphasised from a test of the principle
>>>of free speach by an obscure Danish newspaper following the viist to
>>>the Middle East by Ahmad Abu Laban of the Islamisk Trossamfund and
>>>Akhmad Akkari, spokesman of the Danish-based European Committee for
>>>Prophet Honouring. along with some supporters who took along a 43 page
>>>dossier including the cartoons and some considerably more provocative
>>>I presume what their underlying intention was was to help isolate the
>>>muslim population in Denmark from the native population which of
>>>course they have managed to do in spades.
>>>I'd say that publishing Holocaust cartoons will just further this
>>>isolation as I think the reaction of most Westerners will be: Hold on
>>>a minute: publishing a cartoon that suggests that there is a link
>>>between Islam and terrorism (especially in the context of having daily
>>>images of islamic extremists blowing 30-50 fellow muslims up with
>>>suicide bombs or beheading aid workers, and the historic Muhammad
>>>himself being a pretty accomplished warrior ) isn't quite in the same
>>>category as denying the fact that Hitler killed 6 million Jews or
>>>advocating the Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth.
>>Or invoking the blood libel:
>>The ironies of these recent events astound me.
>>>From the perspective of memetics I think one needs to look at the
>>>whole Islam memecomplex and in particular the protective strength to
>>>the religion given by thehypersensitivity to criticism aspects of the
>>Yeah, but you don't want to dwell on such topics on this list, lest you
>>get warned by the moderator (hint, hint).
>the problem I think, as some of the replies indicate, including the above,
>is that some have jumped right into the substantive issues, good-bad,
>right-wrong, rather than a memetic analysis.
It's a little difficult to keep one's values in check with this issue. The fact that blood libel cartoons are fair game in Arab media yet...oh never mind.
>Should not an adequate account of this start off with an account of the
>commentator's own memeplex of values which are to be used the subsequent
Tolerance of others is one value I regard highly. Tolerance, though,
*should* be a two-way street. Note the deliberate value-laden language.
>One reference, for example to "the protective strength to the religion
>given by thehypersensitivity to criticism aspects of the
>ideology." ought to be deconstructed for its own memetic qualities. so
>what is the 'hypersensitivity' meme? is it a purely subjective assessment
>residing in the minds of those who use the word? can some objective
>truth or insight about the meme in question result from the application of
>"hypersentitivity" as a measure?
>might comparison between 'honour cultures' and 'no honour cultures' be
>there is a lot buried here.
>first thing is to define the meme? yes? no? is it the cartoon? if so what
>are the qualities of the cartoon? Or is the meme the reaction to the
>qualities of the cartoon. what exactly is spreading? what are memetic
>qualities of the reactions in the western media?
Has there been parallel iconoclastic tendencies in Christian and Buddhist sects? Any prohibitions against graven or other images?
There's certainly no dearth of iconography in Buddhism nor Christianity. I
find it fascinating to contemplate the variation of depictions of Buddha and
Christ. There's the traditional Indian Buddha and the fat Buddha. Buddha
depictions are big in Thailand, I think. One of the Thai restaurants I've
been to had a small bowl of what looked like Pad Thai as an offering to a
tiny figurine of the Buddha behind the cash register counter.
Christ seems to be depicted as a Northern European in renditions I've seen,
though he was Semitic if historical and not mythic. Some African Americans
have leaned towards depiction of Christ as being black. I found a cool
mirror of the last supper for one of my friends at a yard sale and all at
the supper were depicted as black. We chuckled at one of the guys who may
have been Judas because he had this strange expression like he was up to
something. And I'd assume that some of the Christian sainst have
metamorphosized in various countries, such as thoe in Latin America.
Depictions of San Lazaro in Cuba may have some African features.
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