Re: Dawkins on Channel 4 tonight

From: Kenneth Van Oost (
Date: Sun 22 Jan 2006 - 15:23:06 GMT

  • Next message: Kenneth Van Oost: "Re: Religion and evidence"

    ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Dawson <> Kenneth wrote,
    > >Reading what you have been thru', you got my sympathy, but no more than
    > >that. It is not that god exist that everything is allowed and all can and
    > >may be
    > >said or done in his name !
    > >I am sorry to say, but in the context of this forum, your mind is
    > >with
    > >memes that never will die, moreover, " God is not dead, nor is he dying,
    > >cause such a cock- up won 't die, an illusion never dies, a fairytale
    > >never
    > >be refuted. ", that writes Michel Onfrey in his new book ' Atheology '.
    > >Who today doesn 't believe, the atheist_ like me_ gets cursed, loathed
    > >is consired as being immoral and repulsive.
    Ben wrote,
    > Yes it is true that some people do view atheists as cold and immoral
    > and it really gets up my nose when I hear people attaching that stigma
    > to atheism. People who know me personally would not put me into that
    > category at all, and I'm sure you're not either.

    << I am not saying you were Ben ! And no, we ain 't cold and immoral, on the contrary, it is just because I ain 't religious at all, I can think along ways that are in some sense ' forbidden ' for those who do believe. And yes they may seen extreme and far- fetched, he but ain 't religion doing the same thing !?

    > Unfortunately there are also plenty of equally derogatory stereotypes
    > applied to people of religious faiths. For example, I would not agree
    > with you that religious people are "soft and weak". If I said that to
    > my sister, she'd probably slap me, just to prove the contrary!

    << The idea behind this is that people who do believe need something or somebody to pass the day by. They need a god or a kind of religion to be or to claim who they are or want to be! Soft and weak are not to be taking literally what I suspect you didn 't. Without religious tides that bound me to certain moral codes and ways of cultural/ social and even political behaviour I can do much more. I have no religious inspired code that watches me over the shoulder when I am dealing with ethical and moral problems which do need an answer and a rapid swift response and solution. I keep the human in mind and in all his or her respect, his or her religious background doesn 't matter...sometimes you have to deal with it, no doubt, but you must and in some cases there is no other solution to overcome that dilemma.

    Marc Hauser and his Moral Sense Test, would you kill one or let die one in order to save five others !? I is moral justified to turn round or not to turn round !? Say, I won 't turn round and the one dies, but what if the one is your sister, your brother, your best friend, the president of the US, or in another sense, Saddam, or a mass murderer, the guy who raped your daughter, killed your father !? Would that change your choise !? And what if the five men were known terrorists, the Jackson 5 who's music you really can 't stand !? Would THAT change your mind !?

    In either way, you will know what the consequenties of your actions will be, should you live further like nothing happened, being the hero in the one case, a coward in the other !? Personally I would choose my relatives and friends, I would have no moral dilemma nor trauma if five unknowns to me would drawn ! Hard, yes it is ! Very hard, indeed ! I ain 't gonna get any seat in heaven....

    Do you want to anticipate to Hausers inquiry go to,

    > As for this "militant atheist" approach you speak of, I'm not sure I'd
    > go along with that. OK, whilst I don't subscribe to religious ideas
    > myself, I do believe that the majority of them are harmless. Some even
    > offer a comfort to people in times of crisis. Surely we should be
    > tolerant of those beliefs, shouldn't we?

    << Yes, in a sense we must, but on the other hand, no, where beliefs treat women like dirt, where freedom and eqaulity is in jeapardy we must act, not with violence, but with debate and discussion and arguments. And where that isn 't possible, well so be it ! Egoistic and egocentric, perhaps, but my indiffe- rence works for me....My head is clear of memes that in another way would spoil many things for me and my living surroundings. Don 't lie awake at night over this, I sleep well and have no nightmares....



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