From: Keith Henson (email@example.com)
Date: Mon 21 Feb 2005 - 23:01:11 GMT
At 05:48 PM 21/02/05 +0000, you wrote:
>>Even though the psychological traits behind this story were right out of
>>the stone age, the effects on the track western civilization took were
>>profound--and probably more from Athens than Sparta.
>Its the interplay that always got me....Athens would not have flowered
>without Sparta's military ability saving Greece, and then Sparta finally
>finishes off Athens in the Pelopponesian war but in the process weakens
>itself sufficiently to be pulled down in later wars
>>PS. The rise and fall of Greek society gets only end note treatment in
>>Dr. Diamond's Collapse, but it was for the same environmental damage that
>>happened to the Mayans, though not so extreme.
>D'you think so...I thought it was the socio-economics of non-unity...
Nope. The downfall of Greece can be seen in any core sample of the valley
farmlands. From the bottom up you find a layer of good soil, then a mess
of sand washed off the deforested hills, then a thinner layer of decent
soil, then *another* layer of sand.
Overpopulation and deforestation got them at least twice.
>Philip of Macedon "industrialised" himself sufficiently to arm a much
>bigger country that could face the Greeks militarily, and the Greek states
>didn't unite against him sufficiently (no unity memes in circulation....).
>Sparta's weakness by now didn't help either.
At the root of almost all downfalls is a damaged environment, sometimes
complicated with climate change.
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