Re: Eurovision !! To Derek

From: Van oost Kenneth (
Date: Thu 27 May 2004 - 14:20:19 GMT

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    ----- Original Message ----- From: "derek gatherer" <>

    > > _ incredible is that many, like Croations, voted for
    > > a song of their neighbouring state ! Why !? Where
    does that sudden friendly gesture would come from !? Derek,
    > It comes from a kind of memetic reciprocal altruism,
    > and it's not so sudden, but has been building up over
    > decades (see my paper)

    << But what do they exept to get in return_ what can be given and what will be received !? IMO, some countries, speculate...invest in something without, even getting the promise, that something will be gained by their efforts. If all of the neighbouring sides of the Ukraine did speculate, do invest_ what will they win in the end_ oil !? Political support !? A 1000 posibilies can be drawn !!

    And a building up is going on for years, but how can this be !? How can / will you built up a reciprosal altruism within such a large number of people !? And moreover, WHO holds the leach and for what purposes, you never can be sure that people vote the way you want, unless you provided the circumstances in advance...

    That are IMO questions that aren 't answered ! You say, decades, but parts of the former Yugoslavia were than still one country, and are since rather ennemies yo eachother than friends_ giving 10 or more points to your neighbouring ennemy would than do the trick !? I doubt that

    > > Were the points than already giving to Norway by the
    > > Swedish audience
    > > or was it a last minute rescue effort to please the
    > > neighbour !?
    > The rules require the former, so if the latter, then
    > that was cheating. I'm not going to get into that,
    > since I think we'd need very compelling evidence to
    > make such a serious allegation.

    << Probably, no doubt, but still I am not that sure_ was it Lativia who said it clear, " to our neighbours 10 points, and to our other neighbour Russia 12 points " . Would that suffice to ring any bell, that the votes were manipulated !? I can 't believe that people would be that stupid....

    That such a contest requires rules is stating the obvious, but rules our bound to be bend and we have no evidence that the points giving were those reflecting the public votes_ we have only the speakers word for it !

    > > _This years voting was a complete farce, Monaco
    > > gives 10, or was it 12
    > > points to France,
    > Monaco has traditionally had a reciprocal vote
    > exchange with the UK, back in the 60s and 70s. They
    > also have not competed for some 20 years or so, so you
    > can't infer any pattern from a single year's votes.

    << True, but isn 't it obvious...I put it in other words, how and why should the people of Monaco vote for a song of France, sung by a Belgium artist !? Taxes !? Fiance !? People in their clear state of mind would never vote for something if there wasn 't any gain in and with it ! How can they be sure their vote will give any result and would France accept in the first place?

    > > Holland did gave points to Croatia, Sebrenicia comes
    > > to mind....
    > Wasn't Srebrenica in Bosnia?

    << Yes it was, my mistake ! But my point still stands, has Hollland give points to Bosnia in order to compensate the attitude of the Dutch forces during the slaughter within Sebrenicia !?

    With all do respect, Derek, as far your paper goes is ok by me, but IMO there are still too many questions unanswered. You look from the point of view of the common public, I doubt that so many indivi- duals are bound to a kind of memetic reciprosal altruism so that a country as Ukraine can win ! Where do you start for prooving that over decades its neighbouring sides were getting in gear to gratitude in the year 2004 the Ukraine by letting it win the Eurovision Songcontest !? They were once part of one and the same country, and by all means the Baltic state aren 't that keen on Russia and Russians, so why granting them 12 points !?

    Best regards,


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