Re: From the moderator: Decision about Joe Dees

From: Van oost Kenneth (
Date: Mon 15 Dec 2003 - 09:36:23 GMT

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    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vincent Campbell" <>
    > If Joe can be persuaded that his political postings are not really
    > to do with memetics, then I'm happy for him to continue to contribute,
    > because when he's talking about memes and related theory he contributes in
    > useful (if sometimes antagonistic) manner.
    > However, is that likely? He seems to be as trapped into posting about
    > as that bloke a couple of years ago who kept going on about mandelas and
    > and DOWN and all that crap, who ironically Joe was instrumental in sending
    > packing.
    > I think he needs to be reminded of the context of the running and
    > of the list- on a British University server, for the purpose of open, but
    > informed discussion of memetics. It's not a US chat-room intended for
    > anybody to spout whatever they like on any topic, and doing that is taking
    > unfair advantage of the spirit of open discussion of memetics the list is
    > intended to serve.

    Vincent, Bruce and all,

    As one of the major contributors to this list over the recent years I ought to think I may indicate the following, without taking sides....

    In a way, yes, Joe postings to this list are related to memetics, though that the major analyses of the problem between America and the Islam is NOT, like Joe tries to indicate, restricted to what America thinks is right. There, IMO is Joe wrong ! Islam is NOT all the way thru' fundamentalistic, like democracy is has its falls and rises, it has it good and bad sides. What Joe is wrong about, is his vision that " Islam-as- it- is " is funda- mentalistic. And that is in our Western- view ( not everything is told and many people don 't even listen to the arguments of both sides) more fact than it is right. Democracy and the American worldview, that freedom and equality are fundamental and universal is in that regard equal fundamentalistic.

    Is there a way of rational thinking is the Islamitic world !? Yes, there is, but not so much is heard about here in the West. There are luminairy ideas present, they too fight for a place in the minds of those concerned. That too is something what Joe fails to see. There is exchange of ideas, of views, there are secular islamistic people in India who are against a moslim-state pur sang. It is a strong movement not only academic but political too. Also something what Joe fails to consider.

    I had in the recent years many discussions with Joe and many of them stranded in his lack of considering that others have different views and in his opinion they were all wrong. I am against terror and all for freedom and equality for everything and everyone, but Khomeini founded NOT a " caliphum " neither he wanted to impose an " imamistic " state, he was all for a Islamistic Replublic. Is that terror !? I doubt that !

    As Joe, we the Western world and the Islamistic MUST find a common place, a common ground, but as long both sides DON ' T understand, and they DON 'T, that they are trapped within their own worldview filled with ideas and opinions they will impose the one and the other. We, the memeticists we are, we got the possibility to convince people to look at themselves with new eyes, with the knowledge that America and Islam are restricted in their talks to the words they now possess, nevertheless we are related to each other. We are all human beings, and thus I support the conclusion that Joe must not be removed of the list, but indeed that he must contribute to the running of this list as founded. That his postings made the original characteristics of this list unworkable, yes I agree, but the " weakness " of Joe and in that manner of the major players in the world, is that the real debate_ how it comes why people differ in the way they think about such matters_ never saw the surface.

    Never there was talk about the red ribbon underlying America of religion, of christianity, of belief. Never there was talk in depht why Europe differs, never arguments like secularism and individuality made the head- lines. And that as for Joe, is the major controverse why America is the bully and is being attacked. America, as Joe tries to impose a worldview upon others where there is no need for such actions. That America and thus us, is trying to defend itself is evident and realistic but it doesn 't has to mean we must follow. Let us talk about the cultural differences between America, Europe and the Islamistic world to find why we all act and behave like we do, maybe we will find a solution. In the meanwhile, Joe may post things, but as long they may indicate a bias for discussion, NOT as imposing facts, and " proofs " of all kinds where he doesn 't want to talk about anymore.

    This is a discussion- list, lets talk....................



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